Transform Loneliness to Greatness: Healing Through Shadow Work, Solitude, and Connection w/ Dr. Shiv Dawson

Dr.

Shiv Dawson is South Africa's

first integrative psychiatrist,

treating patients holistically,

addressing the mind, body and

soul.

You

can feel lonely despite

being amongst people.

You can feel lonely in a

marriage.

Her approach goes beyond symptoms,

looking at the root causes of

our emotional struggles through a

holistic lens.

So they've done fMRI.

scans of the brain.

And what it reveals is that lonely

people's brains perceive threat twice

as much.

We explore this physical and spiritual

aspects of loneliness, how it roots itself

in our very biology and energy centers.

There isn't a real grounding

in our lower roots.

which neurobiologically is associated

with the plexuses of the pelvis

and the hypergastric nerves.

But energetically it seems to

be our connection to the earth.

Dr.

Shiv guides us through practices

for healing and reconnecting

with our true selves.

All these parts that we've

banished, have a place within us

Welcome to Alt Life, where we break

free from the chains of conventional

thinking and explore the limitless

possibilities of a redefined reality.

Thanks for being here, Dr.

Shiv.

I'm really excited to have

this conversation with you.

I think it's such an exciting

topic.

And, you know, I didn't,

I didn't actually realize.

until recently how great a public

health concern it is and that it's

actually become an epidemic and I

was really interested in your and

just your experience of loneliness

and how that's kind of triggered

this conversation coming to light.

I think that's interesting because

you asked me a question now.

Um, I've, so since I moved to

South Africa, like I was living in

Johannesburg and Yeah, I felt, I,

I, I feel like I didn't know I was

lonely until I wasn't lonely anymore.

I don't know if that makes sense.

But now looking back, I think a lot of

the issues I faced and like the struggles

with adjusting to South Africa was like

this feeling of being different, being,

um, misunderstood or not understood or not

being able to connect with other people.

And I think all that has

to do with feeling like.

Yeah.

Lonely for you guys.

You really want to be,

you want to be accepted.

Yes.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I think, I think what research is

showing is that it's actually a much more

pervasive experience for many people.

You know, they did a

huge study at Harvard.

It was a 75 year longitudinal study.

Um, of adult development and the single

most important determinant of happiness

and well being and longevity was actually

the quality of your social relationships.

So they discovered that

loneliness is actually toxic.

And currently about 60 to 70 percent

of people believe or experience a

sense of frequent chronic loneliness.

loneliness, particularly in a vulnerable

age group 16 to 24, which is our,

um, you know, when, when our brains

are just maturing into adulthood, and

then the obvious cases of the elderly

where in many cultures, they're not

really revered or included anymore.

And so this level of toxicity of

loneliness, um, Equates, in terms of

health determinants, as almost the same

equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

Half a pack of cigarettes a day causes

the same level of stress to your body.

And I think what's really important

to distinguish, however, is the

difference between loneliness as

a feeling construct and social

isolation and being alone or solitude.

And so, what we believe is that

Loneliness, you can feel, as you

were saying, you can feel lonely

despite being amongst people, you

can feel lonely in a marriage.

And it's a, it's a internal subjective

experience of not having proper

connection, not having meaningful,

quality filled, relationships.

Whereas social isolation is

deemed as a physical aspect.

It's, it's more of a, an exclusion

either, um, because of illness or, and

this physical exclusion, which is what

we noticed during the COVID pandemic.

Or because of some other case,

you know, they might be xenophobia

or this aspect of aloneness.

And I think this is where people are

getting confused and spirituality

is disorientating people because

being alone is a personal choice.

To take solitude, which feels restorative

and allows for contemplation and

reflection and is part of understanding

the internal workings of yourself,

but it doesn't give you that sense

of not belonging to anything.

Solitude is something that we choose,

but loneliness is, um, almost like

something that we're not ready for,

like something that we just experience.

Solitude Oh, and we can choose it.

And that's what always

makes it like a bad thing.

Well, to me, loneliness

is almost akin to grief.

There is the same aspect of longingness

and a feeling of disconnection

where, like David White, the poet

says, you are looking at the world,

but you can't really inhabit it.

So there is an experience of other

people are doing okay, but I am not.

And I think what people have to realize is

that it's actually a universal phenomenon.

And why it's so, such an important

conversation to have is that I

think what's happening is it's

actually revealing our collective

shadow because it's as a result of

the loneliness and disconnect that

we feel as beings that recreates.

incorrect choices in the world.

So the genocides, the atrocities, the

abuse are all related to, I don't have

a relationship with self and therefore I

don't, cannot imagine that I could have a

proper relationship with somebody other.

So it's this absolute distortion.

of our wholeness as a being, our,

our construct of our relationship

that with self that causes this

very pathological external behavior.

And the research says that, you know,

prior to the 19th century, people

didn't really talk about loneliness.

So did it exist or did it not exist?

And potentially it actually

didn't exist because we needed

to be close to our families.

We had to work in tribes.

We had to support our nations.

We were part of religious institutions.

Because we needed other

people to survive and thrive.

But then there became this push towards

radical individualization and independence

and industrialization, where it was about

productivity and efficiency and everything

in the external world at the cost.

of what was happening

for our internal lives.

And what we've noticed now is that people,

you know, one in four people feeling

so lonely, which is the same statistic

as depression, one in the form, that

the way that we're conducting our lives

is actually not necessarily supportive

for deep meaning and deep happiness.

And, you know, there could be many

influences, like this aspect of

urbanization, so people are They're

moving away from their families for

opportunities, they're living in tall

buildings, they're going to work in cars.

There's not a lot of ability to

connect intimately with people.

And so, you know, the studies show

that lonely people don't have a

lack of social people around them.

They have, uh, the, the lack is actually

the, the quality of the interaction.

So now,

so how, okay, so, so let's actually

like to start with perhaps you can

give us an idea of what is what does

it mean to be lonely like, is there,

are there any physical markers of

somebody like something in the brain

that maybe shows us that this person

is feeling lonely or something in the

body that shows us that this person is

feeling like, I just want to understand.

So what is.

What is happening on a mental level?

You're talking about a

disconnection from the self.

So there are definitely, um,

biological aspects which now can be

measured in people who are lonely.

So they've done fMRI scans of the

brain and what it reveals is that

lonely people's brains perceive

threat twice as much as normal people,

not normal, but people who are not

experiencing a level of threat.

Of, um, of loneliness, which is really

incredible on an evolutionary basis.

So if you've now feel as though

you've got nobody to rely on, you're

definitely going to be much more

hypervigilant in searching for danger.

And the impact of that.

In the brain, it's not necessarily

beneficial, so your prefrontal cortex

is where you make your decisions

and it's your executive functioning.

That ability actually reduces.

So now you're not thinking and

discerning clearly enough anymore.

You're making very deep,

primal decisions about your

environment and the limbic brain.

Yes, and the amygdala, which is

part of the limbic brain, your

emotional processing center, is

much more hypervigilant, turned on.

Coupled with the fact that your

hippocampus, which is where your memory

and learning is, that is acknowledged.

Shrinks in chronic loneliness.

So now your accessibility to memories

and, and learning is also different.

And some of your, your

networks are also different.

So there's something called the

default mode network, which has

the kind of very popularized with

psychedelic psychotherapy, but it's

what I call your kind of Woody Allen

circuit, which is the part that thinks

about yourself a lot of the time.

But with lonely people, it's, it

becomes very negatively ruminating.

It thinks and thinks about

the same sort of thing.

So a lonely person actually becomes a

little more paranoid about the external

environment and suspicious and cautious.

And that effect is, uh,

actually has a repelling effect.

So other people can experience angst

that the lonely person has because

this being feels under threat.

And they then experience it.

So they say that loneliness

could actually be contagious.

Yeah, oh my god, that's the

crazy thing.

I actually read that.

You know, yeah, I read that as well

when I was, like, researching this.

That apparently if you hang

out with lonely people,

Then you can also be lonely.

So, I mean, they did research,

and he's a beautiful guy.

He's done a lot of research.

He was a neuroscientist, and his

name is, um, John Caccioppo, I think.

But his surname is quite difficult.

It's you.

Well, yes, thank you so much.

And they tried to investigate, and you

could probably speak to this too about,

and we'll probably talk about the medical

treatments and remedies later, but Yeah,

can you just throw a couple of people

together and say, there we go, you're

lonely, why don't you all be friends?

And that didn't actually translate

to people feeling less alone.

So the people part is there.

It wasn't touching their, their heart

and the, their aspect of feeling

worthy enough to have friendships.

And so then they did another aspect

where they've, they've, they say,

well, we'll just support you.

Can we give you a lot of psych

psychologists and psychotherapists

so you feel supported to this?

Will that work?

And it works to a certain level,

but actually what people need

is reciprocity in relationships.

So it's no good in, in you coming

to, to me as a psychiatrist, because

to one way way relationship, really,

I'm not being vulnerable with you.

It's just you and burdening yourself.

So they're.

Is that, but it's not dealing with

a very deep aspect of loneliness.

Then they tried, okay, well, maybe

it's a communication or social skills.

problem.

Maybe people aren't

communicating well enough.

And that also didn't support it.

What was actually more appropriate

and helpful was to help people

identify that it was actually almost

an evolutionary default aspect.

And to help support them to,

to recognize that the way that

they perceive eye content.

Or body language.

Or becoming attuned with their own

eye contact, body language, closeness.

Invitations.

Olive branches to connect would make

them feel reassured, let them drop down

their guard, and would create a little

bit more ease and connections again.

So what they discovered in some of the

research was what was Most helpful was

training people to understand these

biological responses within themselves

and to tune within their physical being,

how they were hyper aware of their

own experience with other people, for

example, eye contact or glances or body

tonality and misperceiving it somehow,

and that they also had avoidance in.

And offering olive branches

or making gestures to connect.

And so if they, when they started to

learn that about themselves, they had

more comfort in lowering their guard.

and which makes other people feel

more comfortable and at peace and

at ease of creating relationship.

That's amazing because what you're saying

is that actually the reason I feel lonely

is because I'm blocked and I know for

me what that feels like in my body.

Like for me personally it feels like

It literally feels like my heart

is closed and I could feel it and

that's actually what's making me less

able to connect with another, which

is then making me feel rejected.

Yes,

you see, so this is the beautiful

thing about where we are as a species.

And unfortunately there, I mean,

I think it's layered, you know, we

were talking about urbanization,

increasing our isolation and isolation.

Obviously triggers also.

Fundamentally, there's a bit of, well,

I don't belong, who do I belong with?

And you know, they, they talk about like

having box lives, living in your, your

concrete box and then getting into a

car or a tube and existing in that box

and then going to work and working in

a cube before and existing in that box.

There's not a lot of ability to interact.

And then with the influence of

digitalization, they started to notice

just with the introduction of TV.

That people were starting to have

parasocial type of relationships.

So there was an experience that the human

beings on TV were my family or my friends.

And they, they realized that when a series

goes off, people are under the illusion

that they're experiencing heartbreak.

And, you know, and I don't know if you

couldn't relate to this, but I mean,

I've had a character in a series.

Who I just felt tightly in awe of.

And I was, you know, I just wanted

the series to continue because

I wanted this relationship with

this person that was in awe.

And I think, I think that's difficult

for us, particularly as our over

connectivity has become so pervasively,

almost suffocating to some extent.

That, um, we believe we're having

proper interactions, but they're

so shallow, it's so superficial.

They lack, there's a lacking

of complexity and depth.

We're missing the nuances of subtle,

um, communication, eye contact,

tone, smells, and resonance.

And they did some studies with cancer

patients, and they just believed, oh

well, now we can do everything online.

But actually what they showed is that the

depression levels in the cancer patients

coming to a support group online remained

the same or, you know, slightly improved.

But those who experienced face to face

contact were actually much better off.

The depression significantly reduced.

And what I heard recently, I don't know

who the investigator is, but the, the,

the Gen Z, um, group who actually, um,

you know, were literally born with a

phone in their pockets, but through

puberty, which is the vulnerable

time, had a phone connected to them.

And you can see, you know, even

at, at lunchtables with Gen

Zs, it's part of a conversation

and they believe that it's natural,

but there is actually damage that they

think is happening within the brain

that may not be reversible because of

what we've described about the stress

effects of loneliness within the brain.

And, and not, not only that, you

know, the, those stress effects

have an impact on immunity.

See?

On cardiovascular health, on your ability

to sleep, you know, you complaining

of, and you know, your problem with

insomnia, but there's a fragmentation of

sleep that happens with loneliness and

reduction of deep wave restorative sleep.

When we go into our memories and I

believe in to us, our solar aspects

to, to heal and, um, and to come into

right relationship with our incarnation.

And there are changes in some of

the neurotransmitters as well.

And so the differences

in the neurotransmitters

look very like depression.

Reduction in serotonin, which

gives you this feeling of not

being content, not being calm.

Reduction in dopamine, so not feeling

motivated, not experiencing pleasure.

And reduction in oxytocin,

which is your bonding chemical.

You know, they're even designing.

Um, nasal sprays that support oxytocin

to try and help people connect.

But is that, you know, do we

really need more chemicals?

Obviously that's helpful, but we can,

we can go into that a little bit later.

So I guess like my question then is

like, if my blockedness is causing

me to feel disconnected from others.

So I suppose, but then the loneliness

is also causing me to feel depressed.

So I'm, I wonder what comes first,

the depression or the loneliness?

I think they're probably interchangeable,

and I mean they've done studies to show

that suicidality is associated with

a feeling of emptiness, and emptiness

is an aspect of loneliness in it.

But kind of to your point around

the blocked aspect and the, the

internal nature of it, you know, the

relationships that we have often, have

often been modeled to us as children

had not necessarily been perfect.

We've all experienced a sense of

abandonment or rejection or feeling

suffocated or maybe enmeshed And

as a result of that, we interpret

those aspects of relationship, um,

connectivity as something being

fundamentally flawed within us.

So our insecurity and our

unworthiness creates these

behavioral changes within us.

So now we might try and, you know.

We become even more, we try and

desire more connection perhaps,

or we withdraw even more.

And so, the aspect which I think

is really important is that, You're

talking about a kind of a shutdown

or fragmentation that happens.

So, as a little person, even if we had

good enough parents, in a moment a good

enough parents through impatience or

desiring us to be compliant or criticizing

us or being angry, might chastise us

for being, you know, too emotional

or, or too loud or a bit selfish.

And so we internalize that as

something that cannot be tolerated

in order to maintain connection

to this important caregiver.

So what happens in the wisdom

of our consciousness is that

we split and fragment off that

part that's not tolerated.

So our consciousness, in order to

maintain connection to the caregiver,

says, okay, I'm going to just silence

that part that's too loud or selfish.

Um, and actually, if I could even

banish it so it doesn't exist, then

maybe this caregiver will adore me and

idolize me and will remain close to me.

But what, what happens as we get

older is that that fragmented

shadow part doesn't go away.

You can't actually suppress

it until it disappears.

It continues to knock on the door.

requiring integration.

And when we come into another

relationship, uh, in our, in our

adulthood or in a group, that

knocking is very evident because our

conscious mind is remembering, Oh,

that part, I can't be too loud because

that part wasn't really tolerated.

So now we feel the disconnect of

that part, a discomfort within us.

A feeling of not being authentic.

So shame ensues because of the separation

that we feel from our internal landscape.

And the big chasm between I'm not

whole and there's this other part makes

us feel not only ashamed, but deeply

unworthy and flawed and needing to

present ourselves as perfect because

of our image, our positive image is

the only thing that's going to be.

And the more complications you've had

in relationships in your earlier lives

or through loss or grief or whatever,

the more fragmented parts they are.

And this is what I believe is

the fundamental cure for, for

loneliness is understanding that this

fragmentation happens, um, in all of us.

And being willing to acknowledge

that there is something uncomfortable

that needs to be addressed.

Through therapeutic process or through

a spiritual process, but also being

self compassionate enough to realize

that it is this universal phenomenon.

And I think it's actually part

and parcel of being human and

incarnating as a soul on planet earth.

So we.

We are removed from source.

We come into a physical body

that is dense and that in itself

is difficult and uncomfortable.

And then we come into our world and

in nowadays and in this day and age.

Our births are often medicalized.

Our ability for our mothers

to be in a postpartum period,

which was very nourished and

close, is much more difficult.

Moms have to work.

There isn't a village to take

care of children anymore.

So there are all of these

aspects of separating.

And I remember there being these

newsreels when I was in my teens

about Eastern European mothers.

orphans and how they, they weren't

getting touch or human connection.

You, you remember those

kind of visuals, hey?

I don't remember the visuals,

but I think I'm right about it.

Okay.

And, um, and they could not thrive

without this human connection.

And that doesn't go away just

because you didn't get it as a child.

We still need it as, as I, you

know, and all, as older adults.

And so the, the soul aspect, which I

think is so interesting that I want

to kind of discuss with you, yeah, I

think what's, what I want to stick into

is this awareness of, um, your heart.

Being closed and you you see that in

your own journey space that doing some of

the Joe Dispenza meditations and really

doing some of the chakra meditations

kind of leans into this idea that

Psychospiritually our root chakra is

what develops between the age of one and

three And so do we have an experience

of being physically safe, of being

supported, of being nourished, of

those needs being met at every turn?

And if we don't, which I think a lot

of people don't experience, there

isn't a real grounding in our lower

root chakra, which neurobiologically

is associated with the plexuses

of the pelvis and the hypogastric.

nerves, that energetically, it seems

to be our connection to the earth.

And if you think about trees, the deeper

the rooting system, the, the, the grander

and the taller the trees can grow.

And I think it's similar for human beings.

When we concentrate on our physical,

our root chakra being stabilized, we

get a sense existentially, spiritually,

that we can trust our place.

in the universe.

Emotionally, we don't feel so dissociated.

We don't feel depressed.

We don't feel as unmotivated.

Physically, we don't feel, um,

fatigued or, um, erratic or as though

our immune system isn't strong.

And so I think that, that that aspect,

which kind of leads into the kind of

precept of, of loneliness is what is, um,

a challenge really because we were lacking

the embodiment piece or have lacked or

going reversing into the embodiment piece

in our spiritual evolution there was a

real emphasis through the 70s and 80s

about going into higher realms the more

etheric aspect of our beingness into

meditative states and bliss states and And

I think this is where the confusion around

aloneness has come, that we, that if we

can connect to all that is around and up

and outside of us, that we'll feel okay.

But I think what my experience has been

in my own life and with clients is that

the deeper we can feel into our humanness.

and into our grounding, into our

relationship with the earth and ourself.

The easier that transition up and out

and into bliss states is, but the less

we feel disconnected from everything.

So what does that mean that if we are

able to, I know I'm probably just making

this simplifying it quite a bit, but

does that mean that if we're able to

connect with ourselves and connect with

the earth and just be more grounded

in us, that we won't feel lonely?

And maybe we might even seek being

alone, like the monks and the Sufis

and the yogis that are looking, uh,

longing even to be on their own.

So I think,

I think that's quite a simplified,

um, version of it, but, but I agree.

I actually think fundamentally and It

all comes down to this idea of belonging.

So what do you belong to?

Do you feel like you belong to the earth?

Is she your mother?

Is she supporting you?

So what is your relationship to earth?

Do you feel like you belong to yourself?

And very few people feel like that.

They betray themselves, they, um,

reject themselves, they don't forgive

themselves, they're, um, they're

lacking in compassion with themselves.

So it starts there and then it goes

out to, well, who do I want to be in

my relationship with other people?

And I think with the beautiful Indian and

Sufi and Eastern masters who came to the

West, you know, they probably culturally

already had a sense of tribe and family.

It's very different.

I think they might even have felt a

bit too suffocated or enniched within

the relationship of their family and

needed to, you know, extrude themselves

from that context in order to find

their own sovereignty and truth.

I just want to go back to this thing that

you said about connection to the self.

Uh, to me, this is such

an abstract concept.

What does this mean?

What does it mean when you say

you're like abandoning yourself

or you're betraying yourself?

What does it look like internally

if you're not doing that anymore?

What would you stop doing?

Does that make sense?

So I think that,

that, um, it's such an

important question, isn't it?

Because we can often,

often throw out these.

Psychotherapeutic pop psychology phrases,

like you just need to love yourself, you

know, you need to create personal self

care, more self love, but you're right.

What does it really mean?

And I think that people can perceive

the way that they are with themselves

by the actions that they take.

So is there, are there moments in

time where you would prioritize

everybody else's needs?

And not your own because you're not, you

don't necessarily think you're worthy.

So you think you're being.

Kind and generous to other people and

that it's selfish to take care of your own

needs But that on one level is betraying

yourself But you don't believe that you

are on equal footing to everybody else

in your life to take time to to pursue

the things that you really love to have

your own space to contemplate your own

beliefs and values and Um, it's the

people pleasing model or the deep kind of

withdrawn model of being, I think it's,

it's being hyper aware and acknowledging

that the triggers and the reactions

that happen to you within relationship

spaces, particularly intimate ones, you

know, so when do I feel, um, rejected?

When do I feel abandoned?

Uh, when do I feel as though?

My partner can't see

or hear me or value me.

What's happening within me, um,

that makes me consider that perhaps

there's a disconnect within the

way that I relate to myself before

this relationship with other.

Does that make sense?

Not yet?

It's so a little bit like, it's so a

little bit like, I understand what you

mean when you say, uh, well, do you

put others needs before yours, but I

don't understand about the partner.

So maybe

one example about, you know,

really not tending to personal

needs and overriding intuition.

You might feel exhausted from your

week and your partner might, Have

an expectation that on a Sunday,

Family must come around and that we

provide big and social gathering.

Were you saying that you would

put your partner's needs?

above your own, but that's actually

you're doing that because you want

to connect with your partnership.

Like, I don't know, you want to build

your relationship with your partner,

but that's not necessarily, yes,

connecting.

Yes.

I think, I think that can sometimes be

a code, codependent type of relationship

with other partners needs trump your own.

And, and there has to be this beautiful

dance of reciprocity, but it's being

able to identify in, in our own being.

Um, what is my primary

state at the moment?

So if I am really exhausted and I

actually don't have anything to give,

am I allowed to take time for myself and

go for a walk on the beach or, you know,

heaven forbid, even go away for a week

and not be on the phone to anybody and,

and really just be with I don't know.

Or do I feel obliged that I have

to unselfishly always be able

to offer myself to other people?

I couldn't possibly say no to

an invitation or I couldn't say

no to my boss at work because,

you know, I have a fear that

Oh, I'm going to do another, yet

another promotion or I was like,

be seen as hardworking in heels.

I think I'm guilty of that.

I'm very guilty of that.

And what's interesting is that actually,

I think it comes from wanting to have

more opportunities to connect or, you

know, like maybe if I make my boss happy,

then that's Then I'll be loved, right?

Being loved.

That's going to, I mean, that is it.

That is

it.

And what we're looking for is external

validation rather than actually, well,

at the moment it doesn't really work

for me, but in my vulnerability of

claiming how and why it doesn't work

for me, it doesn't mean I'm distancing.

I'm just owning what I need in this

space and then generating, offering

this olive branch of, well, when I have

capacity, absolutely, I'll definitely

connect with you or take on more work.

So I have some challenges with that.

One is that I struggle to connect.

Disappoint other people.

Like if, like, let's say I said no

to you and I can see, and I mean,

um, yeah, I struggled quite a bit.

Maybe I should talk about exactly what

right now, but like, let's say I say

no to you, like you asked me to do

some work and I say no to you and I

see your disappointment in your face.

I feel like I have failed.

Like I have done something.

Like I've wronged you.

Yes.

And that feeds back into the early

fragmented part that wasn't allowed to

say no and wasn't allowed to disappoint.

But if we can get to a place

of saying, Oh, I can see that's

really disappointing for you.

And I'm sorry, because I'm not going to

kind of put words in your mouth, but is

it, Is it because you feel overburdened

or why, why do I pick up the sense

that you're feeling disappointed?

That actually then enhances the intimacy

connection because that person can then

has permission to say, Oh, you know what?

I actually wasn't feeling disappointed.

I was just feeling insecure

that I couldn't do it by myself.

And now we've created a

different energetic bond.

Intimacy.

Yeah.

Vulnerability.

Vulnerability.

And I like this kind of

phrase of intimacy into me.

See.

So you can see into my, my inability

at the moment to be able to please

you, although I really want it, or to

be present at the session because I'm

too tired or whatever it might be.

And in that way, I give you permission

to be vulnerable too in this space.

But you would have to be speaking

to somebody else who's emotionally

mature enough to do that.

Whereas I find that most people that

you would connect with or meet or.

You know, most people that you may call

your friends may not be at that place

yet, but they can, where if I say to

you, I can see that's disappointed you,

they might just say, no, no, it hasn't.

And that's it, you know, like, stop that.

Um, so just from a very

practical perspective.

I'm thinking that that would be

a challenge that people might.

Yeah, and I, I, I don't disagree with

that, although potentially you're,

you're supporting in the germination

of a training process there.

So they might initially fend it off

because in their fragmented self,

they weren't ever allowed to be,

to admit to be weak, but maybe in

the next interaction, they might

be a little bit more vulnerable.

That's just interesting about like how we

can maybe not fall into those patterns.

I want to like go back and talk about

something That you mentioned, you know,

like I personally I tend to withdraw when

I feel disconnected So I tend to block

myself off so that I won't be hurt again.

I'm not going to give anyone that

opportunity to, so that I don't

feel rejected again, but I know that

there are people that might try to

reach out more and more and more.

And what I want to ask you

is what is happening in that

dynamic in that relationship?

Like, let's say now I'm very

keen to be friends with you.

And it's coming from a place of

loneliness, but somehow I think

you are able to fill that void in

me and I'm reaching out to you.

You are like really, yeah, you're

not feeling it, you know, and

maybe my desperation is kind of.

So what, what exactly is

happening energetically?

Yeah, so I think, I think

this is also so interesting.

So.

Neurobiologically, this kind of

relationship with addiction is

quite similar to, to loneliness.

So loneliness, there is a longing

and addiction for the other to

fill this aspect of self that

I can't nourish within me.

There's a craving and the part of

the brain that is implicated in part

of the addiction pathways is also

implicated in loneliness, the insula

and so I think there is what we

were talking about previously,

this almost repelling effect

that happens with loneliness.

We've often heard of people saying, you

know, I just need to find a soulmate,

just so desperate to find the one.

And it needs to be.

extraordinary and the very act

of needing it to be in this way.

I think sends of signals, as you were

saying, of, of desperation that other

people pick up on and then other

people withdraw because it feels

quite intense because they can sense

that it's actually neediness that's

requiring connection, not the heart based

openness that's requiring connection.

Um, connection.

And then the lonely person having

this hypervigilant sensitivity

then notices the backing off body

language in the other and then gets a

fright and then withdraws even more.

And so I think it's the

energy of desperation.

Yeah, I think so too.

I was just trying to think

about the chords that happen.

You know, we believe that with every

interaction there is a, an energetic

chord, it was like an umbilical cord that

moves from one person to the other person.

But, for it to be free flo flowing and

even, there can't be a vampiric, almost,

um, energy draining from the one person.

So in that energetic cord, if there's

an equal balance of give and take and

seeing and vulnerability and openness,

then it feels healthy and strong.

But if the one person is needing a little

bit more than the other person is giving

off their energy and it feels too much,

and then there's a block that happens.

Yeah, that's very interesting.

So what, I suppose it's like that

very difficult thing to do, right?

How do you stop wanting something

that you so desperately want?

I

think, I think it's to do with

the inner work, which is, which is

actually really uncomfortable to do.

True shadow work is highly provocative

for the person because you are going

into your deepest parts that you've

been avoiding your entire life

and having to shine a light on it.

And having to breathe into allowing

that unintegrated part to come home.

So, you know, the, the solution for

addiction is not necessarily stopping

the drug, although that is the external

manifestation, it's connection.

If addicted people feel connected, they

actually don't need the addiction anymore.

And similarly, similarly for

loneliness, when we connect deeply

within ourselves and, and recognize

that these, all these parts that

we've banished have a place within us.

That they're, they're calling

for something, the part that

was too noisy, what did it need?

It needed attention.

Okay, so let's give it attention

instead of not giving it attention.

And how can I bring that into myself

through aspects of contemplation or,

or working with a therapist or doing

paths work or doing family systems

work or doing psychedelic work.

And as we become more attuned.

To the missing aspects within ourselves

and why we are, what we're seeking for in

every moment, and it starts to dissipate

a little bit and what we're, what, what

we have most feared being alone is then,

then starts to become what we most fear.

You know, so I grew up as a lone, as

an early child for a long time until my

brother came around at the age of 12.

And then we lost two children in our

family, quite a kind of heartbreakingly.

And so I made a vow as a young person

that I would be surrounded with friends.

I would suffocate myself with friends.

As my, my friend, Shannon says, I would

peanut butter layer myself with friends.

So I needed a huge network.

of friends, and I was going to have

lots of children to fill that void.

And I was going to have a partner

that I would remain with forever.

And, and as I've kind of explored in

my own relationship with myself, as

I've recognized where those little

parts of myself felt abandoned or, or

rejected, or not worthy enough, or not

funny enough, or whatever constructs

or narrative I had about myself,

and that tended to those aspects.

Within myself, what I crave so much is

time with myself in my very, very, very

busy life that I created for myself.

And, and it's now being alone,

being solitary, that feels so

unbelievably nourishing for me.

I have so many questions, like

literally so many, and we can go

in so many different directions.

One question I want, like, I just hear

this all the time, shadow work, but I

don't know what, I know it means like.

Kind of working with parts of you that

you don't like, or you're trying to shut

down, but I don't know what it means.

What would I do to do the shadow work?

So I think it's always

easier to do in community.

So with others.

So either with, um, a therapeutic aid

who's aware of it or in, in a group of

like minded, um, emotionally aware friends

and kind of point out little foibles.

And.

And you, it won't be as, as scary or

intimidating as you might imagine,

because, you know, if I had to ask you,

what are the parts of yourself that you're

kind of insecure about, not that I'm

asking you this, but that you're insecure

about, or that you hide, or that are

really problematic for you, it would be

very easy to identify those, and it might,

you know, it might translate initially as.

Something very physical, you know, and

I just need to be really successful.

Ah, but why?

You know, I really, I need to

be, um, I need to leave a legacy.

Do you really?

Why, you know, so kind of unpacking

the shoulds, needs, musts, have tos

of our world, and then identifying,

is there anything in my life that

is draining me of energy and power?

And like really taking

time to look at that part.

of self.

And so it's just an investigation.

It's a curious investigation of

the relationship that we have.

How would you do it?

Would you meditate in a certain way?

Is there some kind of practice around it?

I know there might be many, but if

you were just like, to give us one

so I think what I found most helpful

with my clients is that having, uh,

uh, you know, a practice like you were

talking about, a meditative practice, is

a critical component because one needs

to have time with one's own thoughts

to feel the restlessness, to feel the

subconscious patterns that keep arising.

Then one needs to have the time.

Openness and curiosity to look at what

patterns are repeating in one's closest

relationship So I don't know if you know

but in with my partner and we've been

my husband and I will be together for

20 years It's the same little triggers

that cause us friction over and over

again and You know, we can talk about the

mental, we're blue in the face, but what's

actually happening is that my partner's

pattern from his own conditions in early

life is meeting my pattern and causing

friction, which is really important.

It's got nothing to do with him as

a person or with me as a person.

It's just the pattern.

And then we can uncover, well,

where is that pattern come from?

So, My pattern in my home is that

I need harmony above all else.

And so I become hypervigilant in

my family if there's fighting or if

people speaking nastily or, you know,

everybody should just simmer down and it

shouldn't be too dramatic or histrionic.

And that just comes, that comes from

my own internal landscape of me,

things needing to feel very peaceful.

Whereas my husband is quite a

volatile character, much more

Mediterranean and passionate.

And, and he speaks his mind, um, and, and

so that can be triggering for, for me,

but But likewise, when I need everything

to be all simmered down and contained,

my pattern, it can make him feel like

he's not allowed to have a voice,

what, what he experiences is not valid.

So it's just having the, the

curiosity to evaluate those aspects.

So it's the meditative self

reflective part, it's the patterns

within relationships, and then it's

being very honest with yourself.

around the harm that you're doing

to yourself in particular ways, you

know, so do I always tend to um,

Have a relationship with a friend

who is very needy and constantly

asking and draining of my energy.

What's that about?

Yeah, well, why do I need to

have a relationship with that?

.... I really want to know actually.

I wanna know Why am I doing it?

I don't understand like yeah, because

there are people that are quite

draining but somehow I, I like them.

That it's about having awareness of, well,

what, what is the draining telling me?

So our body's constantly communicating

signals, so I feel drained in that place.

Is it because that person continuously

talks about themselves and their

problems and their complaints?

And so do you feel validated as a good

listening ear or like you could solve

problems by listening to that complaint?

Or does it also help maintain a

level of disconnection for you where

you don't actually have to reveal

anything that's going on in your life?

You know, so do you get an opportunity

to complain about things that aren't

working so well in those dynamics?

So it's that part.

I think that's really critical.

And then looking at one's health.

So I think that's.

Physically, our body is communicating,

you know, are we carrying too much weight?

Is our immune system not good?

Is, you know, I've, I've often thought

about skin being a boundary, a barrier.

What is that telling us?

And so it's just these invitations

of just pulling up the hood of

ourself, but it takes, it takes a lot.

dedication and discipline to

either journal or take time to

contemplate or really delve into

the depths of some of these things.

And then there are other modalities

that are psychotherapeutic.

So you can do family therapy, where you

look at the relationships that you have

within your system and how that might

relate to your own internal family system.

Or you can do a type of gestalt or parts

therapy, which is the, what we kind

of talked about before, about looking

at the fragments of self So you can

kind of disidentify the part that has

been fragmented and then embody it.

So what I would do with a client

that's feeling really depressed

is I'll say, Well, there's a

part of you that feels depressed.

Can we go into her and

discover what she's all about?

And then we actually role play that part.

We find out how old she is, what

is she needing, what is she doing,

what is she lacking, what does

she need to express physically.

And then that depressed part might

actually feel another part that is

completely abandoned or suicide.

So we start to look at, ah, these aspects

of myself from an objective point of view.

Okay.

So, that it becomes It's a play, really.

And as we understand these different

character aspects of this masterpiece that

is us, we can start to pull them together.

Yeah.

It's almost like what I guess I would

do when I was a child, you know,

like, so it's the, yeah, there's

this doll and there's this doll and

they're in this kind of relationship

and we enact the whole thing.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

That's what they do in play therapy.

The kind of sand tray play therapy

I wanted to ask, I guess it goes into

the fragmentation, but I read something

about self rejection and aloneness.

Can you talk a bit about

what's happening there?

So I think

it's this concept of the fragmentation,

where it's, it is believing our conscious,

our subconscious mind, our consciousness

believing that there is a part of us

that is not allowed to fully express.

So, maybe there was, in my early

life, we couldn't be angry.

That was not tolerated.

And so we always had to be happy,

bubbly, effervescent, enthusiastic.

So, the angry part of me was banished.

And I used to think, oh well, I

don't, I don't experience anger.

I'm just not an angry person.

But, That is a self rejecting part

because every human being feels anger

and anger is a very, very valid,

important boundary set up of, this is

not right for me, and I'm not, I'm not

agreeing to this type of interaction.

And so it's the self, it's the, the

rejection that has happened in that

early life of the untolerated parts

for somebody else or for ourselves.

You know, maybe we have experienced,

um, through discrimination or through,

through, um, in whatever form it is

that we're not okay, it's how we present

to the world with the color of our

skin, with, with our gender, with how

beautiful or how not beautiful we are.

And that we internalize and try and keep

in the shadows and reject ourselves and

hate ourselves and betray ourselves.

and abandon ourselves because it's

just fundamentally flawed and, and

we don't have the mechanisms and

haven't been taught either in school

or in spirituality how to reintegrate

that to accept that this is human,

this is part of the condition, the

fragility of Of being human, that, you

know, there's such a beautiful story.

Um, there was a New York journalist

who, I think it was 2008, 2009, David

wrote, who got kidnapped by the Taliban

and he was, With two other colleagues,

Afghan colleagues, were separated

and isolated for about eight months.

And obviously experienced extreme

isolation, and hopelessness, and despair,

and fear, and all that you can imagine,

being kidnapped and not really knowing

if he was ever going to be rescued.

And the way he said he navigated that

sense of terror was that he firstly

started to notice around him, the

environment, and how the environment

continued to exist in spite, despite him.

And yet it started to develop a level

of gratitude with the beauty, with,

you know, his, his co kidnappees or,

and then what was even more beautiful

about that interconnectedness was

he started to identify similarities

between himself and his captors.

So, you know, his captors

gave him the Qur'an.

initially to read, which he refused,

but then he brought it in, and he

experienced a level of salvation because

there were truths in there that he could

relate to, and he understood that his

captors were on some level, you know,

doing what they believed deep down was

right for their religious, you know,

expression, for their family, for

their nation, or whatever it might be.

And so his book called, um, A Rope and

a Prayer really examines this idea that,

that spending time with self, being

isolated can be the most unbelievably

traumatic experience, but with hope and,

and, and dedication, it can also bring

out the most unbelievable realizations

around the importance of resilience.

And the importance of relationships being

fundamentally the most critical thing,

because all he wanted during that time

of kidnapping wasn't to go back to work

and write the book that he wanted, it

was his family, his intimate connections.

And so the quality of his relationships

subsequently was profound, you know,

really investing in the people that served

him, really making time every moment to

interact with the, whoever it might be,

you know, the barrister or the cashier.

And he was able to do that even, I

guess that's, uh, once he got over

that traume, or was he able to do

that while he was still captive?

Look, I think that, that, uh, that's

a very extreme case, you know, I think

that he had moments of this kind of

spiritual realization, but probably

only subsequently started to put it

all in place and really came back as

a fundamentally changed human being.

And, and so I think it also speaks

to the preparation for us as human

beings to, to imagine that there is

probably a time in our life where we.

We could spend time alone,

in solitude, in isolation.

My deep belief is that it's part,

a necessary part of the maturation

of going from the first, your first

adult life into the second adult life.

So Jung describes this

process and individuation

requiring a Period of solitude.

And we know that the great men

in life have taken periods of

solitude, Buddha under the bohi tree.

Jesus, in his 40 days in the desert, um,

Muhammad in the cave of Hira, um, Mandela.

So even Plato said, remove yourself

from society and distraction

to hear your own new truth.

So I think there, there is, when

you're prepared for it and you're

taking it willingly, there is a

great benefit because then you

really are allowing yourself to meet

the, what I call the hungry beasts.

The parts of you that are continuously

gnawing at you for some level of awareness

or integration that we, because of the

discomfort that that makes us feel, have

overly frenetic, busy, full lives, you

know, when I say to people, I'm, I'm going

to go out into the wild for four days

and, and not eat and do a vision quest

and I know a lot of people have done much.

Greater, better things.

A lot of people say, Oh,

I could never do that.

Could never be alone.

But what does that mean?

We can't actually be alone with ourselves.

We're actually terrified of being

in nature and we're terrified

of the conversations that we

need to have with ourselves.

We just don't have the skills yet to, to

embrace that relationship with ourselves.

I think that one of the fears

is If I was thinking, if I would

think very practically, I think

now I really enjoy being alone.

Um, I, I think I've always enjoyed

being alone actually, I'll correct that.

But now I'm able to use my alone time

very productively, like by connecting,

by connecting to everything around me.

Yes.

Uh, I wasn't able to do that in the past.

And one of the scariest parts about

being alone, It's the thoughts that

your mind gives you because it feels

like you're not, I believe now that

we choose our thoughts, but you

know, it didn't feel like that then.

It just felt like my mind was creating

these thoughts and it's giving it to me.

They always tend, they tend to be

negative, like my mind is not giving

me happy thoughts its not like

spontaneously gratitude, like, you know,

just thankful for everything around

me, or it's not giving me gratitude

or love or any of those things.

It's actually just giving

me very negative things.

It's making me ruminate.

Like they said, that's, it's, it

feels like I'm not doing that.

It feels like my mind

was doing that to me.

Well, if for me, it's the fragmented parts

that are doing that, they're speaking.

And so, you know, when it becomes

too painful, maybe we need

treatment to silence it a little.

But I think the problem with

psychiatry is that that's all we

want to do, is silence the voices.

Well, what happens if the voices have

really something profound to say?

Can we sit in the discomfort of it?

Can we build our resilience,

physically, emotionally, and

spiritually, to, Listen to it.

Okay, so what, what are you so fearful of?

You know, what is so unworthy that

you're willing to commit suicide?

You know, what, what makes you so

unlovable that you're willing to shut

yourself away from everybody, um, and

stuff your face, you know, whatever it

might be that, that, and the addiction

part is that I think without even

realizing it, we form addictions.

In order that we, we don't have those

scary thought processes happening.

So, you know, the binge watching

of series or being on our phone

continuously, not ever really being

in prolonged periods of not being

productive or not being stimulated

is what makes us really anxious.

And not only does it amplify the

anxiety that it's, um, you know, it's

impeding us from really addressing it.

What was your personal

experience of being alone?

You know, so I know you've done the,

like you spent time in the Amazon

and then you went away in the desert.

That's what I heard in your milestone.

Now I know, like, what is that like?

Like when you.

How do you go away and you're

just by yourself with your

thoughts, no phone, no nothing?

Like what do you, what do you do?

I think that's

a really good question.

And I'm, I'm naturally a very busy person.

I love to be stimulated.

I love novelty.

I've got a very, um, curious mind.

So I'll, I want stuff all the time

and that's, you know, part of my, um,

that's part of what's detrimental to me.

And I think initially.

There was physical resistance, so I felt

uncomfortable, and I felt bored, and I

felt critical of the process, and then,

you know, my, then I'd get a hive, and

I'd feel my throat would swell, and so

the body was kind of extruding all of this

toxicity that I was holding around, just

being with myself and creating more and

more and more distraction about, oh, this

is ridiculous, I shouldn't do this, and.

Oh, you know, I was fine by myself.

So it creates all of this noise around it.

And then the mind feels

like it's growing crazy.

And there's a, there's almost like

spiritual psychosis that happens

where one can feel like we're becoming

dissociated and disorientated.

But eventually, when you navigate all

of that mess, and noise, and chaos, and

just learn to sit, it becomes peaceful.

Is it possible that someone

attempts this and goes crazy?

So, your professional view.

Look, I think

it really depends on the

intention and the purpose.

The, um, and, and the, the, the

psycho, psychological resilience

for, of a person to begin with.

Um, I don't believe that human

beings are at risk being in nature.

So I mean, obviously there's the obvious

risks that we don't have to talk about

them, you know, the animals or whatever,

but actually the more people spend

alone in nature, the healthier they get.

And so my advice is just go, go

spend hours in the ocean, spend

time in forest, hours in the forest,

hours on the mountain, repeatedly,

and see if there's not a benefit.

And what if you went away and you

just, I would think that, before I

found meditation, Um, I would probably

just be spending hours ruminating.

Is that a risk that you just spend all

those days ruminating and you don't?

So then I guess

the intention is, well, so after all the,

the kind of brain vomit of the rumination,

are you going to be disciplined

enough to see whether or not you can

discover what part is.

Communicating all this rumination

and whether or not you want

to do something about it.

So it can become, a kind

of self fulfilling prophecy.

The rumination where it feels quite

indulgent and it supports the aspect

of ourselves that feels victimized,

like somebody else needs to rescue

us or pacify us or soothe us.

But if you go with the intention of,

I'm going to get to the bottom of

it and I'm going to dig into that

ruminating part endlessly and really

examine, what are the 80 percent

themes, you know, our brains think

the same thing 80 percent of the time.

Yes.

You know, like, what are those things?

Do we actually know?

Put them in a list.

Do I want to be thinking

about that endlessly?

You know, are we, am I thinking

about how poor I am all the time?

How fat I am all the time?

How I don't have friends?

Well, if that's not really what

you want to be thinking about, is

there something more supportive?

To be considering and how do you,

how do you align with that, really?

So I guess like what I do and I think a

lot of people do is that we think that

if we Think about it enough we might

solve the problem and I've had that

experience in the past We've thought

about something so much actually like in

my case and I'm sure it's like that for

many other people And I feel like if I

work hard on this, like if I think, you

know, I did my, uh, research at Gibbs.

I got a, I got a very high mark.

I, like that was MBA research anyway.

So the way that I won that battle was

because I just thought about it all the

time and that's how I excelled at it.

And so I wonder if there's like

a part of us that feels like

we have to keep thinking about

it until we find a solution.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's, you know, maybe

that's part of our culture, and maybe

it's also a belief that we independently

have to find the one answer, but it

could also be related to, you know,

our thinking strategies may not be

sophisticated and we can explore

different ways of creatively thinking

about things rather than necessarily

having to exhaust ourselves by just going

over the same piece and analyzing the

consequences or the pitfalls all the time.

And also allowing ourselves the luxury

that having space from thinking.

Often provides the opportunity for

the third part or the third way, which

I feel is kind of the answer that

wasn't really, wasn't human designed.

It was kind of other

designed to infiltrate need.

There needs to be space

for, for that to come in.

I want to ask about how you,

how you came to this work.

It's very rare.

To talk to someone in the, especially in

the mental health field, and as being a

psychiatrist or you're a medical doctor

and you've, uh, studied, how, how did

you come, how did you come to this?

So I think I was telling you

earlier that as a child I was very

interested in the mystical realms.

And so there was always

this openness and curiosity.

And I came from a very medical

family, surgeons actually.

So it was a very specific

type of medicine.

And I was interested in human,

human extraordinariness.

So as a young person, I was absolutely

obsessed with the Holocaust and would

And I couldn't understand how some

people had experienced that environment

in the concentration camps and had

been able to find something within

them to, to be artistic or to thrive

or, you know, to have just been able

to maintain a semblance of something

otherly, despite all that catastrophe.

And that really kind of pushed me into,

you know, Um, psychiatry and I, as a

relatively sensitive person, I'd also just

experienced a hardship in my own early

life and it made me curious around that.

And then I think when my

father was dying of cancer.

And he had only 18 months to live,

and his approach to it was a very

surgical approach, medical approach,

and you're just going to kill him.

And I said as much, and I taught myself

functional medicine and integrative

medicine, and because he had no other

option but to listen to some of my

whisperings, because, you know, he knew

that his prognosis was so poor, and

he attempted some of the things that I

advised, and he He lasted five years,

which was phenomenal given his stage

of cancer and the progression of it.

You know, never lost his hair with chemo,

he was able to stay at work and so I

was able to then apply some of those

strategies with my own patients and I

don't know if it was just because of the

patients that I was It was attracting,

but I wasn't admitting patients as

much into the psychiatric hospital.

So as a young student in studying

and working in London, I'd also

been a little bit off the wall.

You know, I got pulled in by the medical.

Uh, superintendent of the hospital

because they said my drug bill was higher

than anybody else's as a junior doctor.

And when we evaluated it, it wasn't

because I was using more drugs than

other people, it was because I put

all my schizophrenic patients on

vitamins and omegas because I thought

that their brains were malnourished.

So there was always that openness,

and then I was constantly

researching the mysticism.

I belonged to a kind of

secret psychiatry sect.

We met in an underground crypt in

Regent Street where we talked about

spirituality and psychiatry and about

whether or not entities existed and

exorcisms and, you know, I didn't know

anything about this, but there were these

ancient people who were talking about it.

And I was very interested in hypnosis at

that time, and as a young person, I then

also went and about 15 or 18 years ago,

went into ayahuasca in the Amazon with

shamans, which then gave me a completely

different framework of, Oh, but doing

psychiatry is just one aspect of health.

There's this other big

part that we're missing.

Or

it's

one view.

Yes, it's one perspective.

Yes, it's one perspective.

It has one perspective.

It may not be.

Be the the truest one, you know

So we might be medicating people

that that need to feel those things

or that need to see those entities.

Yes

Yeah, I don't know.

What do you think

about

and really I think what I started to

realize in my own life was that I,

as a psychiatrist, did not like other

people feeling anything but happy.

It was my own harmony aspect that I

didn't want them to feel uncomfortable.

So I'll do anything in my

power to make you feel okay.

But in so doing, I was disempowering you.

I needed to trust that you could do

this without medication, that you

could sojourn in nature for two weeks

and that you'd feel so much better.

And it's so changed my

practice completely.

And.

I was doing integrative and

functional treatments for my clients.

I wasn't admitting them, which

caused problems for the hospital.

Cause I wasn't making a lot

of money for the hospital.

I was then going on consultations

into the forest with my clients

instead of having them in my rooms.

And so I think it, it was, it's

just my natural proclivity to

understand that human beings have

a deeply spiritual component.

And as psychiatrists, you know, even in

psychiatry, we're removed from hospitals

usually, we're in, at originally it

was asylums, and then we were kind

of ejected away from, from hospital.

So we didn't even want to

be part of the body anymore.

And I think what's beautiful now is that

we're starting to integrate all these.

Facets, again, we're starting

to have conversations about

spirituality and psychiatry and about

inflammation and mental well being.

It's going to provide people

with a much better foundation

of sustainable health, I think.

As you're speaking, right, one of, one

of the biggest issues that we have,

I'm thinking, is that this word mental

well being, what is that actually,

like, as I think, I mean, you, you

must correct me if I'm wrong, but.

As I think, it's like, actually,

it just means that I can't find

any physical damage in you.

So I'm going to call it

like, you're mentally ill.

But actually, it's all one, right?

It's all one.

So it's like, like,

also, is it okay for us?

Are we ever mentally well,

physically very sick?

I don't know.

Is that possible?

Is it possible for me to have like

a failing kidney, but I'm mentally

well, but my kidney is failing?

Is that?

So I guess, I mean, I've never

really considered those topics.

I think they're really important.

I guess it's how you define mentally well.

So somebody who, you know, we had,

we had a little boy live with us.

Um, who died and he had kidney failure

and I would say that he was mentally

really well, although he was going

and, uh, getting dialysis every week

and he was swollen like a, completely

swollen because of the, the cortisoid,

uh, cortisone injections, but he was

playful and engaging and angelic.

And yeah, I felt like he was mentally

well, although, you know, I think that the

toxicity of not having a well functioning

kidney didn't make it necessarily easier.

I think he was much more fatigued and

probably had a bit of cognitive slow exo.

I think it's, it's different really.

But I think outlook is what

you're kind of talking to.

I guess what I'm feeling is like,

you know, whether I'm mentally

uncomfortable or physically

uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable.

It's one thing, comfortable,

you know, and it's like, I

guess, you know, you're right.

As I said that, I was

like, no, you're right.

I mean, there are people that can

be very positive and happy and

I guess as happy as they can be,

but they're still uncomfortable.

And I suppose as a, as we're

talking about being psychiatry,

being separate from the hospital.

And then I was thinking, yeah,

but discomfort is discomfort,

or being unwell is being unwell

Yes

but, you know, working in hospice for

a period of time, sometimes patients

would get to a point where they were in

such deep acceptance of the discomfort

and physical ill health that it provided

them an openness of mental clarity and

just incredible well being and gratitude.

So, yeah, I think there

are many different ways you

could look at that part.

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about

loneliness, and I'm thinking, what

if you could become comfortable

with feeling, alone, and just,

accept it, like, okay, I feel alone.

I mean, could that be

a gateway to something?

Yes.

Yes,

I think that's the, the,

the first starting block is

acknowledging, okay, I'm alone.

And what is this bringing up for me?

And can I start to use it as this

navigating tool, compass, to identify

what parts feel delicious about

the aloneness and what parts feel

really scary and can I tend to those.

And I think that's just scary because

I've got it within me, I don't have to

seek medical intervention outside of

myself and be given an antidepressant

because I'm feeling lonely.

I don't need to necessarily go and

join all sorts of clubs, although,

you Belonging is very important.

You know, I do think there has to

be this, this, this tenacity to

observe what aspects are avoidant.

So introverted people might

have behavior patterns that make

intimacy a little more complicated.

So for example, I would much rather

type on my WhatsApps than do a voice

note or actually pick up the phone.

And what I should actually be doing is

having, picking up the phone and going,

Hey, do you want to meet for coffee?

And going, for coffee.

So I've noticed that little pattern

within me when I get into You know,

whatever it might be, um, that I can

go into that aspect or that, um, you

know, we have the avoidance of not

really connecting to the people in our

neighborhood, you know, to our, our

favorite Barista to our, the people

who help us in our house or whoever.

These are all little moments

for us to practice tips.

Yeah.

You know how I feel about that, as you

said about the Barista I felt like.

You know, like, why do I not do that?

I feel like I don't do that

because I feel like they

wouldn't want to connect with me.

Like, I feel like that, that

guy's busy, you know, he's busy.

He's got a lot of things to do.

That person's I wonder if other

people feel like that too.

They would legit, but

it's about experimenting.

So

it's,

you know, it's really, you know,

sometimes I do this with, with my kids.

And, and I'll say like, how much magic

can you create for people in a day?

So how many, because of your

own smile, how many contagious

smiles can then you induce?

And when you're playful and

open to the barista, there's

always a response, really.

And because we're in Africa,

there's usually a much more

positive warm response.

And I think that's what's so lovely

about South Africans is that we,

we generally want to have this open

camaraderie type of connection.

I'd like you to just talk a little

bit about what you currently are

doing and what you plan to do.

Because you talked a little bit before,

before we started recording about this

conference you went to, Aaron, and

then you mentioned the safe house.

I just want you to chat a bit about that.

I took my family out.

Um, I was off school last year and

we went traveling for four months

and then I closed my psychiatric

practice and I thought I was

going to reopen it, but I didn't.

And off the back of that, I'd

become much more interested in the

initiation process for leaders.

You know, how do we really

start to support leaders?

What I'm calling a luminous leadership

program where we identify that we're

all in our individual rights leaders

and that, um, there is a past process of

development, psychological development

and spiritual development to become

a true authentic servant leader.

So that part is very interesting for

me and it may entail a psychedelic

journey or it may not depend on

the person that's interested.

And then I think.

really because of my awareness of the

collective shadow coming up to be healed

because we're moving into a space over

the next, I don't know how long, just a

couple of centuries, where we're trying to

move into a place of unity consciousness.

And, you know, the artificial intelligence

is a physical manifestation of that.

There's a need to kind of

interconnect, although it has an

enormous amount of shadow aspects.

But that's what we're trying

to do as human beings.

We're coming from a very polarized

individual process into more

and more joint collaborative

community orientated processes.

But in order to do that with purity, we

need to look at The shadow aspects of

us and our collective, and for me, the

thing that really burns into my soul

is the way that children are abused.

And so I'm very keen to support the

establishment of safe houses for battered

children, which are very poorly funded

by our government and social development.

So that's another arm, really.

It's just supporting the

fundraising and the awareness.

for children who are abused, and then

in those safe houses, you'd also provide

them with support, like the support to,

uh, possibly heal from their trauma.

Yeah, so I mean, not necessarily me, but,

um, social workers or play therapists.

Trauma specialists, and we don't have

enough, so if anybody wants to train,

that would be really a really good thing

to train in this kind of compassionate

inquiry and trauma process work.

But yes, these, these little ones are

the most lonely fragments of our society.

I mean, to not, from a young age, to never

have felt secure or nourished, to never

have had one, probably a single adult.

Could tell you that they, they probably

belong to have a community, a society

you so, that is so dysfunctional

and busy to also not belong.

I mean, it's really, these are the

leaders of our next generation.

If we don't take care, there

will be very, really significant

problems, worse problems and just

loneliness and mental health issues.

I think like us with our very privileged

backgrounds, if we carry around so

much trauma and we, , spend, struggle a

lifetime trying to overcome those traumas.

If we're lucky, actually, because

we might just live in them.

Um, but then I think about children like

this and, and children that have had

much greater trauma and, like, never,

I, I've experienced love, you know, I

mean, but then to, when I think about

a child who's never experienced that,

who has no sense of feeling, uh, that

must be so isolating, and I feel like

that's really, yeah, that's amazing.

Thank you on behalf of society, for doing

No, really, my role is very minimal.

You know, there's some very powerful

queens who are running the show,

um, you know, who have started these

sort of support systems within, in

their dining rooms, in their homes.

So the accolades cannot go to me

at all for that, but it is just the

position of a platform that I can share.

But I think, you know, as you say,

even in our privileged places.

I think what's happening with

Lightworkers, for want of a better

word, or people who are very interested

in spirituality, or or people who have

had, who have means, is that we may

not just be working on our own issues.

What we might be doing is

tending to the collective grief.

And trauma.

So I know within my own life,

I experienced things that I

know fundamentally are not

related to my early background.

It cannot be so.

But the way that I empathize and have

connection and resonance with it,

I know that I'm tending to a part

of the collective in that aspect.

And I think that's potent work for people

who are aware of that at the moment.

Do you have any final things you'd like to

share, um, just like what you would like

to see somebody struggling with loneliness

or what your advice would be rather to

someone who's struggling with, um, with

feeling alone and feeling disconnected

from themselves, from their families?

I do, I've got a beautiful poem that

I'll share, but I think, I think just

as a caveat to one of our earlier

parts of our conversations, you know,

in this, um, in this much more kind of

spiritually orientated worlds that we're

in, I think the spiritual bypassing

is really important to, to tend to.

Because I think people feel very

lonely and then they, They seek

spiritual salvation, which is great,

but, but sometimes it can also deny

the very human aspect of loneliness.

And sometimes meditation, whilst

fundamentally a critical skill to

have, can also, you know, It could be

dissociative and it could just be this

bliss state or the void state that we're

experiencing us not tending to what it

actually feels like to be in a body.

Or we can rationalize that, you

know, it's all one and this is all an

illusion and I don't have to tend to

this really uncomfortable part of me.

And I think that's also bypassing.

And then the third is also to remember

that Sometimes the very spiritually

prominent people on Instagram, or the

ones making a lot of noise, and I admire

them for whatever they are offering

to the world, for sure, is, that can

also come from a part that requires

validation, or is, you know, is, is

fearful or, or needing of something.

And there, there is kind of a new age

glow, I think, to spirituality that

might also be a little superficial.

We need to, you know, be very

discerning about the depth of things.

Um, not, it's not just all love and light.

You know, the shadow work is

very intense and complicated

Yeah, I agree with you so much about

this because we could get in, like,

seriously into the wrong hands and start

just, you know, I mean, it's just sad

for us if we do that because we'll,

maybe it's also part of the learning

journey if you eventually realize,

but one of my questions that I keep

asking myself is that, how do I know

who is, who authentic, and who is not.

And I had a Sufi teacher, which we

talked about before, and my Sufi teacher

used to say, in order to choose a

sheikh, like your teacher, your guide,

you must live with that, that person.

day and night and watch them and

watch all their actions to know

whether this person is truly, uh,

you know, pure and is, and is almost

like is worthy of being a teacher.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, so I know that's, um, at least that's

in the Sufi tradition or, or what, what

he taught, what he said to us about it.

But now I wonder with a lot of, and

especially now because there is so much.

There is so much talk around, you know,

like meditation, manifestation, and,

and they're all, you know, I think I

appreciate it for what it is, which

is it's giving people hope after

coming out of a really dark times

in, especially like through COVID.

And so I think it's giving people hope.

I also think it's great because it's,

uh, causing the younger generation

and, you know, I mean, like the

guys that are in school now, that's

like amazing for them to grow up.

In a questioning way.

Exactly.

So we don't.

Awareness.

Yes.

So we don't accept just the establishment.

I talked to you about, uh, about

this a little bit before, but like

my, my father had a really bad time

in the hospital before he passed.

I was really, really upset about it.

But what was so interesting about

the way he was, was that he just felt

like before that, you know, before

he went to the hospital, you know, he

just felt like, no, you know, like the

doctor said it, I'm going to do it.

Like, that's it.

We don't.

Question it, but I'm glad that we're

able to just have a questioning mindset.

Yeah.

Approach.

Yes.

Yeah.

And to have that same questioning

mindset for ourselves, allow our

beliefs to be dissolved and to be

reestablished, to be reestablished.

reinvigorate, reinvent ourselves all

the time to fluidity about ourselves.

Yeah.

And so kind of, I think that David

White, he's just the most beautiful

poet, said this so beautifully.

This is just

an excerpt of this poem on loneliness.

Loneliness is the doorway

to unspecified desire.

Loneliness can be a prison, a

place, which we look out into

the world we cannot inhabit.

Loneliness is the very state that

births courage when fully lived in

under God's own beautiful reversal.

Loneliness is the foundation of

belonging, this gravitational field

drawing us home, the essence of its

isolation reaching for togetherness.

So to allow ourselves to feel fully

alive is to allow ourselves to understand

our incarnation, that aloneness as

our friend is to apprentice ourselves

To our unutterable singularity.

That, a singularity that can kiss, it can

create conversation, it can make a vow.

And so loneliness is just the body

constellating to join other bodies.

It is the single malt taste

that makes belonging possible.

And the doorway closer than you think.

I feel alone, therefore I must belong.

Isn't

that beautiful?

That's amazing!

And what?

Oh, God, it's very, very deep.

Thank you.

Yeah, I actually want to,

so I want to read that one.

Okay.

Thank you, Dr.

Shiv.

Thanks for listening today.

I hope you found today's episode

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And until next time, don't be a sheep,

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