Every single breath you take is
sending a message to your brain
before every thought and every action.
It's telling your nervous system
whether you are safe or under threat.
In this conversation, I'm joined by Dr.
Ela Manga, a medical doctor to explore
the way we breathe, often unconsciously
keeps us locked in a state of stress and
how trying to override stress is where
we go wrong in our systems of health.
Breath
is a language.
If we are feeling anxious,
there's energy in the system.
Anxiety is the visceral experience and the
physiological experience of adrenaline.
In my system, adrenaline is designed by
it to move us to run away or to fight.
Now there's adrenaline in the
system, but now we are pulling
ourselves in the opposite direction.
What happens to that adrenaline
Ela is rebuilding a
lost paradigm of health.
One that starts by working with
the nervous system through the
most direct mechanism we have.
The breath.
Her work in conscious breathing is
changing how people understand burnout,
anxiety, addiction, and healing.
Not is something to fight,
but something to regulate
from the inside out.
So breath is less of an vertical
movement, which actually puts
a lot of strain on the body.
It's more of a pulse, and then the
whole body breathes, and that is the
pattern of breath that we are seeking
to return to because that way of
breathing is reflective of our most
natural state of peace and freedom.
Dr. Manga,
if we were to put one of
your patients mid burnout in a brain
scanner, and then again 10 minutes
into your prescribed breathing sequence
mm-hmm.
What would we see change and why?
That's
such an interesting question and
I'm so glad you asked it because.
Every technique or every way, uh, that we
breathe has a, a different effect on the
body and the brain and the nervous system.
Our breath is unconscious, right.
And conscious.
Mm-hmm.
The part of the brain that regulates
our unconscious breathing has
been identified in the respiratory
center, in the brainstem.
It's called the pre Botzinger complex.
Okay.
Pre Botzinger.
The pre Botzinger complex, and it's in
the brain stem, it's in the brainstem, and
this has been identified by Jack Feldman.
Okay.
And so it has been shown that
before every inhalation there's a
coordination of the nerve cells.
And this is what initiates an
inhalation, unconscious inhalation.
As soon as we bring our attention
to the breath and when we start to
pace the breath, another area that
is very close to the pre Botzinger
complex starts to come online, and
that is called the Locus Cereleus.
Okay.
So there is one part which is
like just automatic, right?
Yes.
I'm just dumbing it down for myself.
Mm-hmm.
And then there's another part
that comes online when we
are becoming conscious of it.
Yes.
Which means that we
are wired to engage with
our breath consciously.
Our nervous system has adapted
for us to consciously breathe,
which is so fascinating.
And what would be the purpose of that?
Well, that is the question.
Why have we adapted our nervous system
to work with our breath consciously?
Yes.
It's part of our evolution of
our consciousness, I believe.
So when we.
Consciously change the
way that we breathe.
A neural pathway starts to light
up between this locus ceruleus
and our emotional centers.
It's part of the ancient brain that Okay.
Processes emotion, right.
And memory.
Right.
So when we are in a state of fight
flight that we often are when we in
burnout, then it is this part of the
brain that is quite active, overactive.
Mm-hmm.
And the amygdala is the
panic button of the brain.
So we are constantly receiving
signals from our internal environment
and external environment that
this is a dangerous situation.
And so that panic button sends messages
down to the adrenal glands, releases
adrenaline and cortisol, and that changes
the way that we breathe unconsciously.
Now the breath is a language.
So when we start to breathe in that
way, the brain is receiving a message.
Oh.
And fight flight.
I'm in flight, flight now,
and so goes a vicious cycle.
When we receive the message that we
fight flight, our breathing changes.
And do you think that this is
like the primary signal that the
brain gets is from the breath?
It's one of the messages.
So we are receiving information
from so many parts of the body.
Right.
Okay.
So, uh, the, the, our breath sends
information via the vagus nerve.
Mm. To the brain.
Mm. So there's so much information
that the body is receiving constantly.
Yeah.
Muscle tension, um, what's
happening on a chemical level.
Uh, all of that information is constantly
being sent from our body's interoceptors
through the vagus nerve to the brain.
And the brain then interprets it.
So when we're in a state of fight flight.
As I mentioned, the amygdala and the
limbic brain is, is quite active at the
expense of the part of the brain that
regulates attention, memory, empathy,
cognitive, higher cognitive functions.
And so we see that when someone
is in burnout, it impacts memory,
it impacts concentration, it
impacts our ability to connect.
So when we breathe, consciously,
information is being sent via the
locus ceruleus, but now we engaging
with our breath consciously that
dampens the activity of the amygdala.
So less fight or flight,
less fight or flight, and the
higher functioning parts of
the brain start to come online.
The insular, that's another part of
the brain that interprets signals
from the body, but also the prefrontal
cortex, which is responsible for
attention, for focus, for empathy.
Would we then start seeing a change in
like the neurotransmitters in the brain?
Could you talk a little bit about
what effect that would have?
Like what would somebody
in burnout typically have?
Like what kind of neurotransmitters
would be dominating their
brain or like neural chemicals?
And then what kind of change would we
see once they are more relaxed, like
less in a stressed or anxious state?
Hmm.
Well, I think, you know, when we are
in that fight flight, our brain is
so wired to receive the chemicals of
adrenaline and cortisol, the stress
hormones, the stress chemicals.
Mm-hmm.
And that impacts the, the levels of
acetylcholine, which, uh, is part of
the parasympathetic nervous system.
Those levels start to get impacted.
It's interesting that, uh, our mind is not
just in the brain, but in the whole body.
Mm. And a lot of the mind
resides within the cell membrane.
The cell membrane in every single part
of the body has its own intelligence.
So if it is receiving, um, uh, big doses
of adrenaline and cortisol, what happens
is more receptors on the surface of those
cells start to come online, which means
it's needing more adrenaline and cortisol.
And so what happens is that.
We become addicted to
our own stress chemicals.
So how
does that translate to an addiction?
Because now we are using up all
these chemicals and then we are
using up all the acetylcholine
and now we need more cortisol so
that we get more acetyl choline.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so
we unconsciously drawn to the ways
of thinking, the ways of being,
the, uh, kinds of exercise that will
activate that kind of stress response.
And that's why people who are experiencing
burnout are even more drawn to high
impact exercise because they feel better.
You know, I can relate to this so much.
Oh my god, it's making so much sense.
It's just like you feel alive.
We feel alive.
Yes, exactly.
It's because you, because you've
associated feeling alive with
this feeling of being stressed.
Exactly.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And so what happens is this puts a
great deal of strain on the adrenal
glands, which, uh, constantly needing
to push out these stress chemicals.
So the adrenal glands are
like over, uh, on top of the,
sit on top of the kidneys and
they produce
That's right.
Cortisol and adrenaline
amongst other hormones as well.
Okay.
So we've, we burnt out the adrenal
glands already taking strain, but
we are pushing them so hard and
so driving burnout even deeper.
Oh my god.
Yeah.
So that's what happens over time.
Right.
What's really incredible about the
human nervous system is it's capacity
to create new neural pathways.
And we are designed for this.
So like anything, the more attention
we pay to something, the more we make
conscious breathing part of our lives,
the more we exercise in a certain
way that is embodied and present, the
more we make choices for our lives,
those neural pathways start to knit.
The more we practice something,
the more those neural pathways
start to knit, and eventually
that becomes a new way of being.
It takes time, it takes
practice, it takes perseverance.
And in our quick fix world,
we want immediate results.
And so this approach becomes
even more challenging.
And so we, we are drawn towards the
practices that give us that high, not
realizing that actually we are setting
up just another form of addiction.
I wanna ask you a bit more about burnout.
So I've seen you talk a bit about the
different types of fight or flight.
Or like the different like
fight, flight or freeze.
Right.
And not everyone who's living in a very,
in our current present modern world
is experiencing the same or similar.
Similar things maybe, but
not the same kind of burnout.
Absolutely.
And I think that's really important
because fight flight is often spoke,
spoken about in relation to burnout.
That we are in the fight flight
for a great, we are in fight
flight for a long period of time.
And that eventually leads
to burnout in many cases.
That is true.
Mm-hmm.
However, we also have
another stress response.
Mm-hmm.
Especially when stress is overwhelming.
If the situation is too overwhelming,
we tend to go into a freeze response.
Right.
And that response is protective.
So it's almost as if we are needing
to play dead in order to stay alive.
Wow.
And so there's a whole shutdown response.
And so we tend to collapse inwards.
We tend to want to make
ourselves invisible.
That's what it looks like
in our lived experience.
We tend to procrastinate, we
disconnect from the sources of
support around us and within us.
We tend to dissociate from body.
And then we scroll.
We scroll, we scroll.
Yeah.
Why do we do that?
Well, for many reasons.
I think, uh, it's, um, it's a way
to, um, release dopamine, right?
So we get dopamine hits.
We know that which makes
us feel temporarily better.
Mm. Uh, we also.
It's a way to distract ourselves from what
we are feeling and what we are thinking,
which is not easy often to face because
we don't have ways to relate to it.
So just by turning towards how we
feeling, which is so overwhelming often,
it's an incredibly scary experience.
And so we, we haven't developed the
capacity to hold the intensity of our
human experience on the planet currently.
It just feels like too much.
Yeah.
You know, you're right.
And I think your journey is fascinating
that as a medical doctor you are
exploring like this very
empowering way of healing.
And I wanna understand a
a bit about how did you.
How did you get here?
How did you, what was that point where
you realized that, okay, conventional
medicine doesn't have all the answers.
I'm sure it was in one point,
maybe it was a period in your life.
Hmm.
And then how did you move
from that to what you're doing
currently, which is helping people
heal through their own breath?
Hmm.
I, um, had the privilege of
working as a GP in my early career.
And I say it's a privilege because
I came from the hospital system
where the way that we engage with
patients is really fast and we have
to get through a queue of people.
Uh, doctors are tired, patients
are tired, and the whole system,
ironically, can be quite dehumanized.
And so when I went into GP practice, I
had more space and time with my patients.
And I started to listen differently and
I realized that there was so much more
to the story of this human being who
was sitting in front of me than just
the symptoms that they were describing.
There was so much more in what they
were not saying, and I started to see
very clear patterns between what people
were experiencing on an emotional level
and how their bodies were responding to
that, how their bodies were responding
to their emotional life and their belief
systems conscious and unconscious.
And so the more I started to see
patterns emerge, the more I realized
that the way that I had been trained
was quite one dimensional, that I was
not equipped with the tools and the
practices to support a more sustainable
way of being that really supported.
Not just health, but healing as
a ongoing, continuous process.
It's not, we, like we are working
towards an end point of, oh, I'm
healthy now because we are constantly
being influenced by our environment and
by our lifestyle and by what we eat.
And the body's constantly
changing and responding.
You know, I'm going through
perimenopause at the moment.
My body's doing all kinds of things.
It's not the same body
that it was 10 years ago.
And so I'm needing to respond to that.
And so I started to think about,
uh, how can I participate in a
co-creation of health with my
patient that is not hierarchical?
That is really collaborative.
At that point, I was not conscious
of breath being that important.
Yes, I was practicing breath work as
part of my personal yoga practice,
but at that point, as a young GP
thinking about practicing medicine
differently, it was absolutely not
something that I had considered.
I began my journey practicing differently
by studying a modality called Body Talk,
which is a form of energy medicine.
That really appealed to me because
it did bring in the science
and anatomy and physiology.
It was created by a chiropractor, John
Heim, and that was my first entry point
into practicing health differently,
which was really an important step
because it filled some gaps for me.
It really helped me to understand
these connections between, uh, our
symptoms and so many other factors.
Uh, from genetic factors to environmental
factors to factors we don't even consider.
The place we were born, where we are
living, how that impacts our energy feels.
Um, it is just so mind blowing.
And so when I started to practice
that way, I just could not
practice Western medicine anymore.
So I sold my GP practice and moved to
a wellness center, uh, just outside
Johannesburg and with my friend, um,
Marissa, who was a social worker and.
Whose family owned this
beautiful property.
We started to experiment with different
ways of supporting people's health and
creating multidimensional programs,
bringing in yoga, bringing in massage
therapy, counseling, body talk, nutrition.
And we started to create
these 12 week programs.
And it was incredible because it was
then that I started to work with people
with burnout, with addictions and really
started to think about this idea of what
burnout is, what energy management is.
And it was in that time, this was
in 2011, that I experienced my first
conscious connected breathing session.
We were experimenting with
all kinds of modalities, then
trying out all kinds of yoga.
It was such a heady time.
Um, it was really wonderful.
Um.
When I had this experience of an expanded
state, I was just completely blown away.
This felt like the missing piece that
wove together everything that I had been
studying and practicing and learning
about Here was a, a practice, not even
a practice, um, an experience that is
always there that we take for granted.
And yet this is possible to feel this
way by just learning to work with it
differently, by breathing differently.
And even by that stage, I had
started to question the paradigm of
integrative medicine and felt even
frustrated with that idea because
integrative medicine is not
accessible to most people.
Why it involves doing blood tests.
It involves, uh, a whole, you know,
doctors prescribing so many supplements.
It's expensive.
Yeah.
In a country where most people don't
have access to basic healthcare, how does
one offer idea of holistic wellbeing?
Well, what we take most for granted,
and that excited me, but I also
realized that it is really important
and empowering to be understand
the how and the why behind it.
And I think with many healing
modalities, it feels esoteric, it feels
ungrounded, and it's just requires
a trust.
I wanna ask you, did you, did you
experience like judgment from other
doctors, medical professionals, like
people that knew you, did they judge
you for kind of leaving behind your will
scientifically grounded GP practice and
then moving to like holistic wellness?
Uh,
I'm not aware of the, the greater, um,
medical world and, and other colleagues.
I mean, they wouldn't have spoken to
me directly about the way they felt.
I'm sure they questioned what I was
doing, but what I was aware of was
how my family was experiencing it.
I have medical professionals in my family,
doctors in my family, brother who's a
pharmacist, you know, uncles who are
doctors, and they just did not understand,
um, that my career path was taking me
into something that anybody could practice
versus going the specialization route.
Uh, now they understand.
But it took 20 years.
Wow.
Yeah.
Why do you think that more
doctors are not coming to the
same realizations that you did?
What do you think it is?
I think that any doctor, if they
were truly honest with themselves,
would know that we do
not have all the answers.
In admitting that though means that it
has an impact on the patient.
If the doctor is uncertain, that
makes perhaps the patient feel unsafe.
I think that there's also a habitual
and historical arrogance in the medical
profession where everything is just
based on the data and we know that
so much of the data is not accurate.
One has to think about who is
funding the research, right.
And what the greater agenda is.
100%. 100%. Mm-hmm.
And what is incredible to me is a true
scientist who really delves deeply
into the essence of their subject.
We'll find that the deeper they
go, the more expansive it becomes.
Yes,
yes.
Touching the realm of what is unknowable.
There's always stuff and
go deeper and deeper.
It's always unknowable
because if we are to practice in
this way, it means that we are going
into the realm of that which can't
be necessarily measured, but it also
means that we have to go within.
So how do you know?
Like you have to connect
with yourself to know whether
you're really helping someone.
That's so hard.
It is hard.
This
is something that I feel strongly about
with regards to the medical professional
and the responsibility we have, and
it's the importance of asking ourselves
the question, what is the place from
which we are holding space for another?
What is the place within ourselves?
And if we do not commit to that
process of continuous self-awareness
and growth and living in alignment
with what we are sharing,
yeah, I think our work is not going to
have the kind of impact that we desire.
I think it's also hard to, you
know, once you've spent seven years
studying or how, however long it
takes for a doctor to qualify.
It's really hard to say to like
admit that maybe this isn't what
I thought it was going to be.
Maybe I can't help people in the
way that I hope to help people.
Maybe there are things that
are going terribly wrong and
I don't have the answers.
And it's almost like invalidating
a part of you that you've become so
attached, like your identity, like
my identity as a doctor healer.
Absolutely.
And I have absolute empathy
for that because I experienced
it, I experienced it.
I'm just fortunate that I experienced
it quite early on in my career.
So there was less undoing.
There was still a major process of
undoing, and in fact, it hasn't ended.
Yeah.
You know, I am, I'm at this point in
my career now where I'm questioning
whether I should continue keeping
my registration as a medical doctor.
Wow.
Or not.
Wow.
You know, so it's a, a debate and
I, I notice the tendency for me
to want to hold onto it because
it is still part of my identity.
Yeah.
And, and at the same time,
it's feeling out of alignment
with my evolving identity.
So this is an interesting
place that I find myself.
Um, and I think it is important, um,
to recognize that yes, we all have
labels and we all have roles and it's
necessary to operate in this world.
You know, we have been
born into constructs.
Mm-hmm.
Um, from the moment that we
were born, we have given labels.
Yeah.
And then we are raised
within these systems.
And so it becomes very much a way
of being and then to arrive at a
point where you realize, oh, hang on.
This is not quite working for me anymore.
How do we start to unravel that?
Because what are we even working towards?
What does it mean if I
give this up, then what?
Because the future is uncertain, but
I think that we forget that the future
is what we are part of creating.
Oh my God, that is so
beautiful and empowering.
Thank you for saying that.
I noticed that in myself.
I noticed that in the people around me.
I think that also, going back to burnout
now, a lot of people experiencing
burnout are part of that system, right?
And then maybe by the time they've
hit a stage where they're burning
out, it's kind of a bit too late.
Because I'm part of the system and I had
a vision for the rest of my life, except
my experience of that trajectory that
I'm on is not what I thought it would be.
And that's, I think it takes a lot
of courage to question that and to
like switch or to make that change.
But I, but I also see more
and more people doing that.
Like the Gen Zs now, they're totally like
not into like hustle culture, so out.
Mm-hmm.
And not into that.
Like that's just not gonna work.
Mm-hmm.
Why are we hustling, actually?
Why are we hustling?
Ultimately we start hustling only
to go back home, go to bed, maybe
have a weekend with our family if we
have a husband or kids or whatever,
friends or parents or whoever.
We have only the weekends with them
and we're so tired on the weekend
and we're trying to fit everything
in and really like, what is the
point of giving the best hours of our
day and the best years of our life?
Mm-hmm.
To hustle because it's gonna give
us something within, but often
we find that it doesn't do that.
So I think, yeah, I'm
feeling positive that.
More people are questioning this.
Absolutely.
You deal with people a lot who, uh,
experience burnout, but also I wanna
go into addictions at the same time.
All at the same time.
All at the same time.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
All at the same time.
Yes.
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna
reset my dopamine pathways.
And then like, these were like, really?
This is very, very recent.
Okay.
Like, I would say just a few weeks ago.
And then I was just like
experiencing, I just didn't
know what to do with withdrawal.
You're experiencing withdrawal.
Withdrawal, withdrawal.
Yeah.
It's withdrawal.
You're right.
So I don't know what to do with myself.
I don't know what to, I'm eating
like, so clean and healthy.
I feel terrible.
I feel really bad and
I'm feeling stressed out.
I'm feeling more stressed out.
Yeah.
So then I looked up on YouTube and
I found, um, a famous channel that's
Breathe With Send and there's some like
breathwork practices to increase dopamine.
And I tried doing that and it
was good for like maybe an hour.
And then I was feeling
really crappy again.
Mm. What's your approach to, um, dealing
with addictions and Yeah, just if you
can explain how this whole dopamine
thing works and how we could use
breath and what do you think happened
where that breathwork practice didn't
really work for me for too long?
So before I answer the question
about addiction specifically, I'd
like to just mention something
that I think is really important.
And this is something that I have
realized and it has shaped the way I
practice breath work or teach breath work.
So it's fascinating how we can use
something like breath work that we
would like to, uh, use to heal or grow.
Yes.
In the same way that
we do everything else.
So for example, we have a headache.
We want to take a headache pill.
Um, we have hypertension.
We want to take an anti-hypertensive.
That same mindset feeds into the
way we relate to breath work.
So we tend to want to use a
particular technique for a thing.
If I feel this, I want
to do this practice.
If I feel anxious, then I want to do a
practice that's gonna bring anxiety down.
If I feel tired, I want to use a
practice that brings energy up.
Okay.
Guilty
well.
Not guilty, just I will, I'm aware.
Yes,
we are
aware we,
yes.
Guilty is a useless emotion.
Yeah.
Okay.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you for, for we are all
experiencing the same things.
Yeah, I know.
Because I experienced it in myself.
Mm.
And so what I have come to
realize is how the body is
constantly communicating to us.
Okay?
If we are feeling anxious,
there's energy in the system.
Anxiety is the visceral experience
and the physiological experience of
adrenaline in my system, adrenaline
is designed, wired to move us.
It's designed so that we can take
action to run away or to fight.
Okay?
And so now there's adrenaline in
the system, but now we are pulling
ourselves in the opposite direction.
What happens to that
adrenaline?
It's still in the system.
Interesting.
Okay.
Yes.
So if we
recognize that, okay, I'm experiencing
the sensations that I associate with
anxiety and I understand physiologically
what's happening, then I can use a
practice that is gonna move my body in
that direction to discharge that energy.
And once that energy has been
discharged, then my nervous system
returns to its baseline relaxed state.
So rather than doing a calming
practice, when I'm experiencing
anxiety, I do an energizing body
practice that gets my body to move.
If I'm feeling really tired, okay?
Sometimes it's not possible for
me to lie down and do a body
scan, but I can recognize I'm
tired, my body's seeking rest,
rather than trying to override that.
By doing a practice that's gonna boost my
energy or boost my dopamine, I'm going to
recognize that are that right now my body
is seeking rest and if I just recognize
that and lie on my bed for five minutes
and just slow down my breathing and to,
or I do a little body scan, okay, now I've
given my body what it needs and there's
a natural rise of energy that gets me to
get on with my day.
This is a really like crazy
paradigm shift for me.
Like, yes, of course.
Why did I think otherwise?
'cause I'm, I, I do that, you know,
when I'm, uh, struggling to regulate
myself or I'm feeling like anxious
about all the things I need to do
or if I'm experiencing withdrawal.
'cause I've now taken away all my.
Dopamine from my life.
I'm like, okay, I think I
should do some 4, 7, 8 breathing
because it's gonna calm me.
Right?
I should just like, and it works.
You know?
It works.
And maybe that's why it just works
for like an hour or like 10 minutes.
That makes so much sense.
Well, I think the first thing is to
recognize what's happening in my body.
Where am I feeling that sensation?
Yeah.
Okay.
So where am I experiencing tiredness?
Where am I experiencing tension?
So to get really good at naming
and feeling and sensing what is
my body communicating, right?
Using them the breath as a bridge.
So what I mean by that is bringing
consciousness to where that story
is living in my body, or where that
habit of tension is, and almost giving
permission for that place to breathe.
Okay.
It's intense, so it's intentional
and I'm directing breath towards it.
Mm.
And perhaps if there's anxiety, I can
just do a few energizing breaths,
maybe even some movement to
move energy out of my system
and then enjoy a natural
calm that follows.
And so that's how you would treat
somebody who is, or that's what you
would prescribe to someone who's maybe
trying to get off their dopamine seeking?
Yeah.
Yes.
To realize that actually the
feeling that we seek, we can achieve
without the external substance.
And maybe what's happening is that
as we take away our drugs of choice,
whether it's scrolling or whatever, yeah.
As we take away our drugs of
choice, the anxiety is just
our bodies maybe pent up needs.
So the body has like this pent up.
Anxiety that it wants to express.
And so if we allow the body to express
that, then the anxiety will go away
rather than try to suppress it with
like a seven, eight breathing practice.
I just want to talk about
anxiety a little bit.
Yes.
Because for me it's an umbrella term for
a lot of, it's like a soup of emotion.
Yes.
It has not been named and expressed.
Anxiety in itself is not a pure
emotion, sadness, fear, anger, joy.
These are core emotions that we are wired
for, that our brain recognizes that there,
there are certain specific chemicals
related to each of these emotions, right?
And so when we can start to
tease out what we really feeling,
make space for that feel that.
Then it gives a
natural expression to this emotion,
which is actually energy in motion.
If you look at the word
emotions, energy in motion, it's,
it's, we, our bodies are designed to
move that energy in a particular way.
So anger is a very forward
moving, forward directing emotion.
It gives us the energy to take action.
Hey, fear can be quite protective.
It supports us to create more
boundaries, you know, just to pause
a little bit, a little to watch,
Hmm.
Sadness takes us deep, it carves
into our, into our hearts so that
we have more capacity for love,
for compassion, for connection.
Joy is expressive.
The whole body comes alive.
You know, it's a feeling of expansiveness.
Yeah, yeah.
And grief too.
Grief is a surrendering emotion.
It just is so incapacitating
that we have no choice but to
surrender to something, and it's the
closest that we can get to grace.
And so if we can really start to build
our capacity to, to name and map these
feelings in our body, and we name them
and make space for expressing them in
the way that they seek, the way that
they naturally are designed, then
anxiety becomes less of an experience.
So if you
were to just help me or guide me
through a practice that I could use.
To identify what, what the actual
emotions are in my body and then,
um, and then help those emotions,
um, express themselves.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So it might not be necessary
to name exactly what the
emotion is for this exercise.
It's more important to feel the sensation.
Okay.
So the invitation now is just to
come to ground before we do any
particular practice, and just the
act of placing your feet on the
floor or to lift them up on the seat.
Okay.
I'll do that.
Yeah, I'll do that.
Yeah.
Okay.
Hmm.
So just finding a seat that feels
comfortable for you and for now just
allowing yourself to receive the
support of the chair underneath you.
Just exhaling into that.
We are going to be doing
just three grounding breaths.
So that is a double inhalation
through the nostrils.
Nice and slow.
Inhale.
Once, inhale twice.
Follow on with a slow
exhalation through the mouth.
Another one just like this, lengthening
the spine with a double inhale.
Nice and slow and soft.
Exhale as you soften out the
shoulders in the back of the neck.
And just one more like this.
Inhale once.
Inhale twice.
Slow exhalation through the nostrils
now allowing the breath just to rest.
And for now, just listening.
Feeling
the natural rise and fall.
The inhale and exhale breathing you.
And as you start to become alive
to the sensations of breath,
we can start to notice what's here today.
And so all of you is welcome,
allowing the thoughts to
pass through, allowing the
feelings to rise up and sensing
the breath.
Become the breath becomes our inner eyes
to scan to sense.
Where is our body holding
a pattern of tension.
Just notice.
Perhaps it's at the back of the neck.
That's often where we store tension.
Perhaps it's in the jaw, so
release the jaw a little.
Then the shoulders dropped out.
Once again, returning to
breath as inner eyes and
as you start to come alive to
the sensations of breath, you
are also starting to come alive
to the other sensations perhaps
in the throat, the belly.
What part of the body
feels most alive right now?
Is there a part that feels
a little restrictive?
Is there a part of your body
that feels more stagnant?
Where does tension live?
Where does resistance live?
The scanning
Now, can you locate the part of
the body that feels most alive,
that you're most aware of?
And can you direct your breath and
your attention towards the sensation
so the breath becomes a current that
meets the sensation that meets the edge.
Without trying to break it down.
The breath is gently holding and carrying
the sensation with understanding and
compassion and acknowledgement for
this body and what it is holding.
And that's all.
And allowing the breath just to be
the holding space for whatever is here
at the center of your breath shifts
to sit just underneath this sensation.
And can you feel whatever you've been
holding here starting to soften that
the edges are starting to soften as it.
Just trusts this holding
space of the breath.
And then perhaps you can feel this
area itself is starting to breathe.
Now, relax your breath and just notice how
are you experiencing the sensation now?
Is there another part of the body
that is inviting your attention?
Hmm?
Just closing of this
practice with curiosity,
gently return to the feeling of
the support beneath you, your seat.
Gently returning soft eyes,
allowing the light in.
Fascinating.
I didn't even realize that I was
anxious until we started doing this.
And then
what I noticed is that first it
started out in my chest and then as
that softened, it moved to my back.
Right.
And then I started noticing like I
had this, um, twitching, like stuff
just started twitching in my neck.
Maybe I was holding a lot of tension there
and it's just releasing or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So unconsciously your bodies are just
carrying so much, you know, just the.
The, the fact that you are here in a
studio, we have lights, you know, what
is your body holding unconsciously and
then just giving yourself permission
just to turn towards it, to notice with
the breath, nothing much is needed.
I mean, yeah, that was so interesting.
'cause normally I would do like maybe a
4, 7, 8 breathing practice or something
that's like prescribed for anxiety.
But, um, but this was so fascinating
'cause we didn't do any of that.
I just like literally breathed
into whatever I noticed.
So Ela, that was wonderful.
It's really like, shifted my state.
I don't know if you can feel that.
I can You can.
Yeah.
Like I, I feel it.
Yeah.
I feel like it's shifted
the energy between us.
Thank you.
Yeah.
This like leads me to think
about, um, things that.
Other things that people are dealing with?
We talked about addictions anxiety.
What about like hormonal imbalances?
A lot of women especially are
dealing with hormonal imbalances.
Do you think that, I know that if we're
able to manage our, what we call anxiety
better, then things might balance out.
But I wanna talk very specifically
to you about the neurobiology or even
just the biology of how we could use
breathing, uh, or like our awareness
of our breathing to balance out bodily
functions like our hormones and um Yeah.
Immune system, things like that.
Thyroid.
Yeah.
I think it comes down to basic principles.
And so when we can start to
cultivate a deeper relationship
with the breath and the body, and.
And we begin to tone the nervous
system or expand what we call that
zone of tolerance, where there's a
balance between the sympathetic and
the parasympathetic nervous system.
We create an inner
harmony and a resonance.
We create the environment for the body's
natural healing capacity to take place.
I think there's a tendency to look
at the diagnosis or the condition
and to seek the practice that is
going to target that specific thing.
And again, you know, the invitation is
to start to recognize and understand
and appreciate that these symptoms
are really the tip of the iceberg of
the whole story of who we are, which
includes our genetic inheritance.
It includes our environment, it
includes the food that we eat.
It includes
the state of our nervous system.
To your point, directly, the breath
immediately can have an impact on
the state of our nervous system,
which is what makes it so profound.
But how is it that we are
relating to the breath?
So before we even go to techniques,
it's important that we understand
what we mean by functional breathing.
So what do I mean by that?
We all have a baseline breathing
habit that reflects our inner state
and reflects the story of our lives.
So moment to moment, our breath is
reflecting what we are feeling, what
we are thinking, but also it reflects
the story of our whole lives from
the moment that we took, our very
first breath becomes imprinted within
the nervous system and therefore
in our baseline breathing pattern.
There was a fascinating study that
was released, um, quite recently, in
fact, where it was demonstrated that
we all have a unique breath print.
So just as we have a unique
fingerprint, we also have a unique
breath print that is unique to us,
which tells the story of our lives.
We are able to shift that we are designed
to engage with the breath consciously
so that we are able to create a new
foundation for our inner lives and
the way that we relate to the world.
So what does functional breathing mean?
It is, it means breathing in a
way that our bodies have been
designed, firstly, breathing most
of the time through the nose.
Now of course, we need to breathe
through the mouth in certain
situations, but we are meant to
be breathing through the nostrils.
The nose has 30 functions
that have been identified, 30.
And when I was writing, um, Moya,
uh, the Art and Science of Conscious
Breathing, and I was doing research around
this, I was blown away by the really
fascinating architecture of the nose.
And all the functions that are related to,
to smell and memory to the function of our
immune system, to the way that the breast
slows down, the way that we engaging it
brings down our resting respiratory rate.
So many of us are unconsciously breathing
through the mouth for many reasons.
The shape of our face has changed over
the last few hundred years because
of diet and so many other factors.
Um, you know, COVID, uh, did so much for
our habitual breathing, so wearing masks.
For I don't know how long, it was, a
year, two years, it kind of drove us to
unconsciously breathing through the mouth.
So when we breathe through the mouth,
it's sending messages to the brain,
to the body that we fight flight.
And so it feeds the vicious cycle.
So just training ourselves to breathe
through the nostrils once again,
already starts to shift something.
Another aspect of functional breathing
is breathing with the diaphragm.
Now, I think many people get
confused between barely breathing
and diaphragmatic breathing, and
often you'll hear breath work
practitioners say, or yoga practitioners
say, breathe into your belly.
That is not a natural way to breathe.
Breathing into the belly
does not make sense.
Anatomically our breath begins with
the diaphragm, which is the brick dome
shaped muscle flattening and contracting.
The rib cage expands, we
breathe into the back.
There's a three dimensional
expansion of breath,
and we are simply exaggerating
that when we breathe consciously.
Yes.
And that takes the pressure off
the neck and the shoulder muscles.
So when we can learn to breathe
with the diaphragm again,
that is the natural breath.
So breath is less of an vertical
movement, which actually puts
a lot of strain in the body.
It's more of a pulse,
and then the whole body breathes.
And that is the pattern of
breath that we are seeking to return
to because that way of breathing.
Is reflective of our most natural
state of peace and freedom.
Yeah.
That's really, I can feel
the difference there.
What happens when we start doing that?
Like, I, I want you to explain
what most people are doing.
You've watched a lot of people breathing
what most of us are doing all the
time, um, versus belly breathing.
I'm curious to know what happens
when you breathe into the belly.
'cause honestly, when I do some of the
breath work practices and I do breathe
into my belly, it feels a bit stressful.
Yes,
exactly.
Because we are only engaging
one part of the diaphragm.
Okay.
The central part of the diaphragm.
And it's almost, there's a,
a pushing of the belly up.
It's not necessarily
diaphragmatic breathing.
We are engaging abdominal muscles there.
Wow.
And that's why it feels more stressful.
So the first thing that I do with
people who come to see me for any
medical condition is to reestablish
healthy diaphragmatic breathing.
It's a game changer.
When we do that.
Our nervous system naturally
finds a balance, and we already
are creating the environment to
support the body's innate healing.
Whatever that looks like.
We can't always know
what the root causes are.
Yeah, sometimes we can
and we can address them.
Sometimes it's so complex.
My suggestion is to start your day.
As soon as you become aware that
you're awake, start your day
by turning towards the breath.
So I always say Take five,
rather than take phone.
Take just five conscious breaths
before you reach for your phone.
Diaphragmatic breathing dia,
or just noticing your breath.
Just not become aware of it.
I heard something really
beautiful the other day.
What is.
The first thing you're aware of is that
the inbreath or the outbreath, as soon
as you wake up in the morning, are you
aware of the in breath or the outbreath?
I would say neither.
I'm not so conscious,
so practice.
Just becoming aware of the breath.
As soon
as you are aware that you are awake.
And then just notice whether you first
notice your in breath or out breath,
or simply notice that you are breathing.
Yeah, be with it.
Simply being with it, being present
with it as a bridge between your sleep
state and your sleep as a bridge between
your sleep state and your wake state.
We jolt ourselves out of sleep.
We reach for the phone, we
look at emails, WhatsApp news.
You know, we jolted into the
waking day and our dream state
is a very profound place.
It's, we are receiving messages.
We are working through so much
subconscious material and, and
so that those first moments of
waking is a very precious time.
It's a threshold, and so practice just
being with the breath in that moment and
then notice, okay, what's here today?
Perhaps you are still with
a dream that is lingering.
Perhaps you're becoming aware of what
your body's communicating to you.
Perhaps there's a, there's a particular
state of being that you're becoming aware
of, particular feeling a thought pattern.
Just being with that, and then your body
will guide you around what it needs.
Perhaps it really wants to move
and it wants you to stretch.
And then you can just like get into
your body and enjoy a few stretches
and a few yawns and just to start to
move your spine in interesting ways.
Slowing down the breath
and noticing perhaps.
Then you want to just sit up in
bed and slow down your breaths.
Five seconds in, five seconds out.
Perhaps you feel like you'd like to
do some alternate nostril breathing.
What's here today?
So just getting curious.
So you are creating, uh, a form for
the flow of your breaths and responding
to what your body's asking for rather
than a rigid prescribed regimen.
Okay?
So morning practice and then you can
add in whatever else you're doing.
And then an evening practice.
So what is your wind down?
Perhaps the body is holding a lot
of energy from the day, and you
want to do a few mouth breaths to
move energy out of your system.
I love the practice of yoga.
Nidra often hold nons, sleep deep,
rest, A body scan just to rarely
drop into the parasympathetic mode.
To prepare your body for sleep, you
want to use a breathing practice
that is slow and that starts to
slow down your brainwaves, right?
We want to slow down the brainwaves
from high beta state that we have
during our day to Alpha State, okay?
That will kind of guide us into
a gentle restorative sleep.
And then those are the bookends,
morning practice, evening practice.
Perhaps in the afternoon when energy
levels drop, you could do another body
scan, and then during the day, that's
the real practice of your breath.
Right.
So how can you engage with everything that
you are doing and expressing and holding
through the day through your breath?
What do I mean by that?
So what do we do throughout the day?
We are sitting at our desk.
We are busy with emails.
Can you, between your emails,
just do a grounding breath?
Grounding breath, double inhale through
the nose, exhale through the mouth.
Andrew Huberman calls
the A physiological sigh.
Yes.
I've adapted it slightly so
that it's soft and slower.
Okay.
So just double inhale through the nose.
And as you release the exhale,
imagine that there's a softening
the back of your neck and your
shoulders, and you're bringing your
awareness right down to your feet.
It takes a few seconds.
And then the next, next task.
So we are not building up this
adrenalized energy where we get to the
end of the day and we need to crash.
We are staying with it throughout the day
and the diaphragmatic breathing.
Would we just, as soon as we
remember, would we just become
aware of it and try to change that?
Yeah.
So when we doing the grounding
breath, become aware of that
expansion of the diaphragm.
Inhale once, inhale twice.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Another
example of how to weave
the breath into your day.
So you do a lot of speaking,
you do a lot of listening.
What's happening to your breath as
you are listening to your guest?
As something rises and you feeling
something in your body, can you receive
it with a conscious slow breath?
Can you listen with your breath
When I speak and because I've.
Worked with breath and I
work with breath so much.
I have really become aware of the
place from which I'm speaking, that
I'm engaging the diaphragm as I'm
speaking, that I'm hasting my voice.
That my voice is an
articulated, shaped exhalation.
Wow.
It changes the resonance of the
voice and it changes the way that
the person who is receiving what
you're saying it lands is land.
How it lands.
Yeah, it
lands definitely.
I think you're a great
speaker because it lands.
I want to learn this.
Well, you're doing it right now.
I'm doing it now.
Okay, fantastic.
Yeah, so, so then just like going back
to this question, right, so, so like,
so you're saying that yes, you're right.
We don't often know the root causes
of like, let's say hormonal imbalances
and immune system dysfunctions.
But you would say a good place to start
is the diaphragmatic breathing, and then
would you like say, okay, do this for a
month and let's just see what happens.
Absolutely.
This, let's just see like,
maybe, maybe things go away.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that it is a, it's
a, it's a great foundation because
it creates balance of your nervous
system and we know that our hormonal
and we know that our hormones are
part of the autonomic nervous system.
These are not separate systems.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause they're all related, right?
Like the, I guess I'm just thinking
about the cortisol, adrenaline
and then its effects on as
women, estrogen, progesterone.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's, it's all connected.
Yeah.
So when we create the foundations of
functional breathing, we are deepening
and cultivating our breath intelligence.
We are learning to engage
with the nervous system.
We are participating with the nervous
system, and we are very consciously
creating the environment where the body's
natural intelligence can support us.
I have a teacher, uh, one of my mentors
and beloved teachers, Dr. Bernard Brom.
He's the father of integrative medicine
in South Africa, and I will never
forget one of his teachings is that
we don't have to fill all the holes.
We don't have to plug all the holes.
So often when we are in
a state of disharmony.
Related to our health.
We have various symptoms and we can feel
very overwhelmed by all of these symptoms.
And we tend to want to diagnose each
of these symptoms and we think, ah,
there's just so much wrong with me.
Where do I even begin?
Okay, we don't have to plug all the holes
because it is an interconnected system.
If we put one thing in place, it has
a ripple effect on every other system.
The way that we have been taught
to think about our health is in
terms of separate systems in silos.
That's really not how the body works.
And my study of the science of breath
has really deepened my appreciation
of this, how the body is really
designed, the interconnectedness of all
these systems and all the structures
that facilitate this connection.
The Vagus nerve system, for
example, is this incredible network.
Of nerve fibers that connects
everything to everything.
And our energy centers, if we really
circle the concentration of those
nerve fibers of the vagus nerve,
we will see that it corresponds
quite strongly to the chakra system.
How interesting.
And so does the endocrine system.
So we see how all of these
systems are interconnected.
When we study the, the body's fascial
system, a connective tissue, this is
this incredible network that surrounds
every cell, every organ, every part
of the body, to work as a whole.
Then we can wake up to
the wonder of our bodies.
Then we can wake up to how this
incredible body has been designed for
us to engage with, to co-create with.
That's really empowering.
And so when we can shift our relationship
with our bodies, that there's always
more right with us than wrong with us.
Yeah.
That our illness
is the voice of health.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
Our illness is the voice of health.
Let me expand.
It may give you a practical example.
Yeah.
My gosh.
I know what, what do I mean by that?
Yes.
Yeah.
How can that even, yes.
Yeah.
That it feels like such a paradox.
Yes.
Let's think about a very simple example.
So if we have a viral
infection, for example,
what happens is that the body will
mount an immune response, and part
of that immune response is often
high temperature as we have a fever.
So what do we do when
we have a fever often?
Take a paracetamol.
Right.
Not quite appreciating that, that very
fever is part of the immune system's
way of dealing with that pathogen.
Okay, I
got it.
I got it.
But I'd like you to continue.
Okay.
Yes.
So the symptom is the healing.
Oh my God.
Yes.
You are
right.
You are right.
You are right.
Okay.
And when we can see our symptoms as the
body trying to heal itself, the body
trying to communicate something to us,
how to engage with that in a way that
supports that rather than suppresses it.
Yeah.
I wanna push back a little bit on that.
Yes.
Okay.
Because like let's say I am
struggling with a high heart rate.
A long time or low blood
pressure for a long time.
It's just that's how it is.
My blood pressure drops,
my heart rate goes up.
So how is that my body healing?
Because it's been going
on for years and years.
Why hasn't it healed?
Why hasn't it stopped and normalized?
There are few questions we can ask, okay?
Are we listening to what
the body really wants?
Are we giving the body the
nutrients that it needs?
Okay, so there are various tiers, right?
Without judgment and with radical
compassion for ourselves, what
is the body communicating?
What can I eat that will support
my circulatory system?
Okay, what can I use as
medicine through food?
What supplements could I take?
Not to over supplement.
Okay.
And this is often where we need guidance
of a really skilled, wise practitioner,
and perhaps we do need medication.
So this is not to reject Western medicine.
It has its place.
And we are at a really exciting time now
where modern technology and everything
that we've learned through rigorous
scientific research, what we understand
about the body, can meet ancient wisdom.
And through so many traditions, we
have all of this available to us.
Now, this is an exciting
time that is beautifully
explained and said, yeah.
I wanna talk to you about, um,
actually two things, but I think
I'll go with this one first.
You've worked now for many years
with people around their breathing
and helping them heal through.
Becoming aware of their breath.
Do you have any interesting case studies
so it could give people just some
insight into what, what's possible?
Hmm.
Well, I love to tell the story of my
colleague, um, Marge Murray, who's
actually, um, the MD of Breathwork
Africa, uh, breathwork Africa, the
organization that, uh, we founded.
She runs it now.
And she first came to
me about 12 years ago.
She won't mind me telling the story
because she tells it all the time.
Well, she came to me about 10 years
ago, uh, with, um, severe fatigue.
She was feeling burnt out, and she
came to me because she knew that I was
working holistically and she wanted
a series of vitamin B injections.
And as I was listening to her, I just
got the sense that she had been to
therapy and she was using all these
psychological terms, and actually
she felt a little over theorized.
And so I thought, ah, I think she
just needs to get into her body
a little and needs to breathe.
And I invited her to experience a breath
work session and I thought, ah, she would
really do well with series of sessions.
And I'm not usually that pushy or
prescriptive in my approach, but with
her, I just felt that I needed to push
her a little bit to commit to 10 sessions.
And she pushed back, but eventually,
uh, acquiesced and she at that
time was on beta blockers for
anxiety on antidepressants.
And over time and over a year or
so, she completely came off them
and no longer has any need for them.
And she is one of the people
that is really a testament
to the power of breathing.
I, I also just must say
in just saying that.
That it's never just about the breath.
The breath is part of a
system that we are a part of.
So perhaps as we start to engage with our
breath, we realize that we need to move
our bodies in a different way, and we are
drawn to a particular style of exercise.
Perhaps we realize that
our diet needs to change.
So breath in itself, the nature of
breath is that it's not an isolated
practice that can be taken out of
context of the rest of our lives.
Sometimes it just catalyzes
us to take a next step towards
something else completely.
The breath is a catalyst.
The breath is a medicine.
The breath is a connector.
The breath is an illuminator.
Yeah.
Because as you are becoming aware
of your breath, you're also just the
nature of becoming aware of it is that
you're becoming aware of your body.
Then maybe the way that I imagine it is
that maybe then I become more conscious
of how foods are making me feel.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I, I've found this myself in,
um, in the foods that I eat.
I mentioned to you that I,
you know, I, I quit sugar and
I quit like a lot of things.
Um, part of it was that I felt like I was
reaching for things to regulate myself.
Mm-hmm.
But also as I started becoming a bit more
aware, you know, I've been meditating for
just a couple of years now, and, but as
I started becoming aware of my body and
just like noticing like how do I feel
if I like overindulge in whatever it is,
whether it's scrolling and it's just.
It, it, it just doesn't feel good.
And I think, I think like the breath
could be an extension of that, you know?
So you're not just, I've never
become conscious of my breathing,
but that's something that I, I'm
gonna start doing right away,
which is like, what is my breathing
telling me about my state of being?
Exactly.
It's such a beautiful language.
It is a language now that
leads me, I'm curious.
Okay.
'cause I love, I love hacks.
I know that's not how you
operate, but I love hacks.
Like if you meet somebody, are you
able to tell their state of being
just by observing their breath?
Yes.
Okay.
Tell us, how do we do this?
I wanna know, I wanna know how to do it.
Well, I think it's not just about the
breath, it's about the whole person.
It's about the body language.
It's about the way they're
making eye contact.
It's about those little
nuances, about the posture.
It's about their defensive kind of
posturing and, you know, they, there's
more, the more subtle energy field.
Mm. And, and so
the speech is also a form of breath.
So often I get a lot of information
from the way someone speaks, the
tone of their voice, where they're
speaking from, how fast they're
speaking, how slowly they're speaking.
So speech as breath is one of the
parameters of breath intelligence
that I'm just tuned into.
Okay.
So if someone's speaking very fast,
that could indicate that.
So feeling some kind of pressure.
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
If somebody is like, maybe speaking
from up here, what, what would
that, I mean, I'm just trying to
think as I do this, what do I feel?
Yeah.
If there's like
a defense pattern or I
don't want to be seen.
Yes.
What happens to my breath
if I don't want to be seen?
How does my breath reflect?
This needed to be invisible.
Ah, you know, it's kind of frozen.
Yes.
And I feel like all this lockup,
and then I'm only, I'm only speaking
from the top, upper part of my chest.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
If I'm identifying that correctly.
Right.
Yeah.
Sometimes I see a lot of tension in
the upper neck and the shoulders.
Yeah.
Uh, perfectionism lives here.
No judgment.
Yeah.
I mean, I know all of this because I
know myself Well, I'm starting to know.
I think we never know ourselves
fully, but we keep unfolding
our awareness of ourselves.
So when I say these things,
it's in no way, um, judging
anything because we all the same.
Yeah.
We all share common human things.
Yeah.
You know, we often think, ah, this is,
it's only me, but it's actually not.
Yeah.
No one else is struggling.
It's just me.
Yeah.
Everyone is struggling.
I don't know a single human
that isn't struggling.
You know, I've been working with
people for, what, 30 years now?
I, from CEOs to mothers, to creatives,
to people that are seemingly
incredibly confident and accomplished.
I haven't come across anybody who does
not feel in some way not good enough.
Yeah.
A deeper question, right?
Like, why is that, why is
that so ingrained in our Yeah.
In our being.
It's quite sad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've disconnected from our
inner innate state of wholeness.
It's, and it's part of
just being human, right?
It's just part of the humanness.
Um, and I think how do we relate
to our humanness differently?
It's not about, um, kind of discarding
or overcoming getting rid of our very
human, um, feelings, patterns, habits.
But how do we relate to it differently?
And I think for me, that's what
breathwork has helped me with.
It's changed the place from
which I am relating to myself.
So I'm, I'm less hard on myself.
That doesn't mean I'm
not committed to growth.
But I can just see things
from a different perspective,
you
know?
And as we become more aware of ourselves
and connect to ourselves and have more
compassion for ourselves, we perhaps
have more con compassion for others.
Absolutely.
I mean, I see that in myself that as I
uncover things within me, I notice people
that I've been so upset with, and then
I have so much more compassion for them.
Yeah.
And I mean this, um, somebody said
to me that there's no forgiveness.
There's only compassion.
It becomes so easy.
It's almost like there's
nothing to forgive.
I, I get it.
You know, I mean, I. For whatever
reason, that was your trajectory and
it led you down that path and Yeah.
Resulted in you behaving in certain ways.
Exactly.
Maybe I was lucky I came across incredible
people like yourself and that, you
know, that have changed my life, that
have made me reflect and maybe that
person never had that opportunity.
And
yeah.
And I don't think that
anybody intentionally goes
out to hurt anybody else.
I really don't believe that.
You know, we, we say things, we do
things from our own hurts, from our
own defenses, from our own belief
systems that are often unconscious.
Do you think that,
uh, are like state of lack or like
this state of being where we feel a
lack in ourselves, do you think that
this is kind of inbuilt in us to maybe
make us move and search for something?
Or do you think that our natural
state is a state of wholeness and
actually our current system is causing
us to feel this not good enoughness
and this, I mean, I, I don't know.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm just wondering what,
what, what do you think?
That's a really interesting question.
I think
it's both.
I think our innate state of
wholeness is, is there, I think
it's the essence of who we are.
I think the very nature of being human
means that we are, uh, absorbed into the
physicality, which holds all of this.
Not good enough stuff, which then we
just build onto as we live our lives.
And part of the human experience is to
shift that and to find that place of
wholeness again, from which we can relate
to all those habits and patterns and,
and that all of those layers, in fact,
as we work through them, contributes to
our ever expanding state of wholeness.
Yeah.
So we need it.
It's the substrate that we
need to feed this unfolding
heart or soul, if you will.
Yeah.
You mentioned like, uh, facilitating
breath work sessions in groups.
So I'm curious to know that if each of
us has a unique need in any given moment,
how do you decide what to do for a group?
Because surely each person in
the group has different needs.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's also, you know, why I
facilitate the way I do, which
has changed over time because I've
recognized this and how is that?
So the first thing I do is to
try and establish a sense of
groundedness within the body.
So practices that invite embodiment.
Right.
So I start off really slow, maybe with
some movement, just allowing people just
to arrive, and that may take some time.
Mm-hmm.
To establish whatever safety
means for that person.
'cause that means different
things to different people.
But how can I, as a facilitator,
do my best to ensure that this
is a safe space for everybody?
Everybody comes in with their
beliefs, with their, um,
unconscious biases, with defenses.
So in
understanding that this is all in
the room and that we are actually all
constellating and holding something
for each other, I use the words
and the practices to
creative field of safety,
and then I start really slowly.
And so the invitation in that
initial phase is to get people
really comfortable with what their
breath is feeling like today.
Giving them permission to breathe
in the way that feels free and open,
that they have agency in their own
breath, but at the same time, taking
themselves, taking themselves to
the edge of their comfort zone.
So there's a difference
between safety and comfort.
So often we will stay with a
pattern of breathing that is,
that is comfortable, familiar.
Yeah.
That doesn't always allow
us to, to play at the edge.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, so I, I facilitate in a way
that gets people to feel where
that edge is for themselves.
For themselves.
Amazing.
Okay.
So I, I don't often get people
to breathe in the same rhythm,
even if I'm playing music that
gets people to, you know, energize
their breaths to increase the pace.
I never force people to
breathe in a particular pattern
because we are all unique.
And so my approach is far more
gentle, giving people permission
to really sense their own breaths
and work with their own breaths.
Well, at the same time expanding.
And often people are really
surprised that the gentle approach
can be as powerful, if not more so.
You know, often I get people
coming into space that have
experienced far more deep Yeah.
With expanded states and you know,
they're used to that and they expect
that kind of disembodied or almost
expansive, altered state of consciousness.
And yes.
I have intentionally pulled away from
that approach because I believe that
this process is slower
and it takes time
to integrate it within the body that
this, this is an embodied practice and
that actually the invitation is how
do we support this body to hold more
of our consciousness So that expanded
state is not just something I experience
in a group session every now and again
that I'm constantly working on this
body so that it can hold a more of an
expanded state all the time.
Yeah, that's what yoga has always been.
Well, what you're
saying is so interesting to me because.
You're so right 'cause like
this has been my experience.
I meditate and then I get into like a
great space and I feel like, oh, I'm
like expanded and you know, I'm feeling
all these great things and then I go
back into my day and then it's all gone.
Uh, I wanna move on to talk about
specifically like these group sessions and
what comes to my mind is trauma and people
that have experienced, uh, or are, uh, in
a state of post-traumatic stress disorder
have, uh, experienced severe trauma.
How did they respond to, uh, breathing?
Because I know that sometimes, especially
like the more hectic types of breathing,
like the holotropic breath work, where
it's really, um, very engaged and active
can bring up a lot of, uh, emotions.
And do you have a way to like
specifically work with people that
have a. Experienced severe trauma.
I think it goes back to what I was
saying earlier about establishing safety.
Yes.
And balance within the nervous
system so that as we do start to
pick up the pace, that we are not
forcing the nervous system to deal
with something that's not ready for.
And often when we push people into very
high energy breathing too soon, too
quickly, too fast, then it overwhelms the
body's nervous system and people can, you
know, experience, um, retraumatization.
Yes.
Without the integration,
it reminds me of like, uh,
psychedelics and, you know,
people are like doing Ayahuasca
Mushrooms.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean,
I think it speaks to the
need for the quick fix.
Yeah.
We need to reestablish, um, nature's pace.
So I, I'd like to talk a little bit about.
Just like the neurobiology.
'cause you're really into that.
And, um, you talk about it really well,
you know, Dr. Joe dispenser and he's
got a specific breathing technique.
I'm not sure if you're aware of it.
Uh, you know, you breathe it down
into your spine and then you kind
of create a pressurized system.
And so you create pressure along
your spine to push the breath up
into your head and then you release.
Mm-hmm.
And this is supposed to
activate the penial gland.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah.
What, what do you, what do you
think about practices like this?
Yeah.
Can you explain like the difference
between something that just
neural neurobiologically, um,
what you facilitate or the types
of breath you facilitate versus.
These more popular forms of
breathing, even the Wim Hof.
Yeah.
My approach to breath is less
about a particular technique.
Okay.
And it's more about a
spectrum of practices.
Yeah.
So I like to think about my approach as
a form of art where we have these various
practices and by learning to feel into
the body and what the body's asking for,
we can draw on a particular practice
that is appropriate for that time.
In a very gentle way, a lot of these
practices have been taken from very
ancient, um, tech technologies.
They've been taken from ancient
spiritual technologies that had context.
Okay.
That was supported by a lifestyle.
It was supported by a particular
way of moving the body.
Uh, I think the risk of extracting a
practice that was part of a tradition or
philosophy, a way of living or technology,
and applying it in our current context,
we need to be cautious about that.
I'm not saying that there's no power in
that or there isn't a role for that, but
I think that we need to be aware that it's
not just that practice and if we do this
practice, this going is going to be the
answer to whatever it is we are seeking.
Yes.
And again, it's a slow journey of
creating these new neural pathways of
supporting the body's capacity to hold
our expanded states of consciousness.
We can't force ourselves
into enlightenment.
And enlightenment isn't even
a, a destination, you know,
it's a temporary experience.
We have, we've all had expanded
states, and then we return to our
humanness, you know, but how do we
start to just shift the foundation
from which we are living over time?
Could you describe how I would know
that I'm, that I'm feeling safe and that
I've, you know, I am in this state that,
uh, that is like healing to my body.
Mm-hmm.
Like, how would that feel?
Like, I know it's a very
hard question probably, but.
Is there some way that I could
know that I'm, I guess I just
wanna know, am I doing it right?
Am I doing it right?
Is it working?
Is this what it feels like?
And for someone who has maybe been
dysregulated for a long time, they may
not even know what safety feels like.
Yeah, absolutely.
Hmm,
that's a really good question.
How do we know that we're
experiencing safety?
A sense of being connected?
Again, safety means different
things to different people.
I know I feel safest when I'm
in my home and I'm with my dogs
and I'm with my partner, and it
just feels, I feel comforted.
I feel that my breath is flowing and easy.
I feel connected to my body.
I feel at ease if I'm in a crowd.
Too many people and there
too many conversations.
I can feel what happens to my body.
I'm moving into a state of dysregulation.
Even though my mind might perceive
it as safe, I'm not perceiving it
as unsafe, but my nervous system is
telling me something else and I can
feel it in my, with my sensations.
I can feel it in my breath.
So I think it's just getting curious
so I can be really relaxed
and aware at the same time.
Okay.
Often when we feel really relaxed,
we fall asleep, so we are not
conscious of that state of relaxation.
Yes.
So to cultivate the capacity to hold
relaxation while in my conscious state
is powerful, and that's why I love Yoga
Nidra non sleep, deep breath so much.
That it really, really
supports us in doing that.
And actually all breathing practices,
not all breathing practices,
but the breathing practices that
support the state of calm focus.
Um, that's I think what we are
aiming.
Yeah.
Okay.
So is there anything that you see other
breathwork practitioners doing that
you perhaps wish they did differently?
I ask because I noticed that your approach
is, is quite unique compared to what I've
experienced in like breathwork sessions.
I think it's really important for
breathwork practitioners, wellness
practitioners, any practitioner
that is holding space for these
expanded states to offer a sense
of agency back to the person.
There is a tendency to,
even in these spaces.
Create a sense of hierarchy where
I'm the person who is all knowing
I'm the guru, I'm the teacher, and it
creates this, this hierarchical system.
It also tends to happen when
someone is having an expanded state.
In the presence of this facilitator, we
tend to project that experience onto that
person or associate that feeling with that
person and put that person on a pedestal.
It's the guru complex.
It's dangerous.
Okay.
We are moving away from
the time of the guru.
Okay.
And the invitation is to
find the teacher within.
It's harder, it's far easier to
give our power to a system, to a
drug, to a pill, to a person, to
an organization, to another system.
Whether that is a business system,
a health system, a spiritual
system, whatever that is.
And so I'm not saying that we
don't have a need for that.
We can't operate in isolation, but if that
system, person, technology practice is
not supporting you to tap into your own
inner wisdom, to deepen that, to cultivate
that,
given that you so into the science,
what is, where is the, where
is the research frontier and
if you had an unlimited ground,
which study would you run to settle?
Maybe something that's
being debated at the moment.
The impact of conscious breathing
on the minds of children.
Okay.
Tell us more.
I think we spent so much time undoing.
Hmm.
What society has done, what
technology does, what does living
in this current reality does, right?
And what if
conscious breathing was part of the
curriculum, not just as a tool, just
not, not just as a technique that is
done at the beginning of the day or
before class, but that children learned
about their bodies differently, learned
about the diaphragm, learned about the
wonders of this human form, and that
engaged with the breath in that way.
What impact would that have on their
ability to self-regulate and the ability
to learn on their creative capacity?
That is what excites me most.
Have you been working with children?
At Breathwork Africa, we do.
So Marge Maria mentioned earlier,
specifically focuses on breathing
with children and yeah, it is our
dream that, uh, we get some research
funding to do the study because I
think that can have an impact globally.
What have you found while
working with children?
They get it.
They get breath because they
are so close to their essence.
They're so close to the natural
state, you know, there's not
much we have to teach them.
We just have fun with them.
Unnaturally.
They, they're drawn to it, it makes
sense and they teach their parents
and they can be the catalyst for
the healing of the entire family.
You know, that a lot of children are
being diagnosed with A-D-H-D-A-D-D.
It's like a blanket diagnosis,
I would say, for all kids.
Many kids.
Good breath work, help them.
Of course,
of course.
You know, the brain of a child,
the developing brain of a
child is, is, it's incredible.
They're sparking up new neural
pathways at a incredible rate.
And when we are in a state of stress,
our breathing pattern is really shallow.
When we know mouth breathing, um,
and, you know, we are carrying
heavy bags to school, we are
sitting behind our desks all day.
What does that do to
the our breathing habit?
When a child can learn to read more
slowly breathe through their noses, they
cultivate their own breath intelligence
that supports the prefrontal cortex.
To learn better, to
spark up those pathways.
It dampens the activity of the
amygdala and it really increases
their capacity to learn and develop.
And maybe a lot of, uh, the things
that parents are struggling with
and even the children, children
are struggling with would possibly
even just sort themselves out.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, we need our prefrontal cortex to
learn.
Yes.
And so if that child, just because of the
default, uh, dysfunctional or suboptimal
breathing pattern is activating their
limbic brain and their, their amygdala
constantly, um, you know, it's impacting
the capacity to learn and we can.
Absolutely shift that.
Yeah.
You
know, it's so interesting 'cause
I would, I, I would think that I,
I always thought that it's so, it,
it would be so cool to get kids.
My sister has two kids, and my niece
and nephew are always, always trying
to get them to meditate so hard.
They're not gonna do this,
but this can change your life.
Trust me.
They're not, they're not buying it.
But I think that breath is something
that's, uh, much easier to, to grasp
and, and so That's fascinating.
I'm definitely gonna
chat to them about it.
Uh, thank you so much.
This is, this has been so much fun.
Thank you for me too.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity
to share what I'm so passionate about.
Thanks for listening today.
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